PZ Myers. 2005 Apr 19. Random thoughts on the appointment of a new Pope. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/random_thoughts_on_the_appointment_of_a_new_pope/>. Accessed 2008 Dec 01.

Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Tuesday, April 19, 2005

Random thoughts on the appointment of a new Pope

*Edited because we must be accurate.

**Or vampire.***

***Or lich. It's getting very hard to keep up with all the suggestions; can we just say some generic form of evil undead?

The other bulleted points are, of course, completely true.

Whoa. Matthew just put up a few links that have completely changed my view of this pope.

Separated at birth? Pope Ratzi and the Evil Bilbo.

imageimage
Posted by PZ Myers on 04/19 at 12:51 PM
Godlessness • Humor • 5 Trackbacks • Other weblogs • Permalink
  1. In his defense, he deserted from the Wehrmacht.
    #: Posted by Alon Levy  on  04/19  at  12:58 PM
  2. Return of the Inquisition?
    Nobody expects the head of the organization which 'replaced' (superseded?) the Inquisition...
    It never left, and its head honcho now rules the lot of them.
    Pfeh.

    Shirley Knott
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  01:02 PM
  3. Nazi? No, just some guy who thinks liberals are fascists.
    Grand Inquisitor? Please, that's so a few centuries ago, Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has a much better ring to it.

    The National Catholic Reporter had a comprehensive cover story on him six years ago. Well worth reading. http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/041699/041699a.htm
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  01:21 PM
  4. But Giblets is the Pope! I am anxiously awaiting the restoration of Church jackal pits and a big Jesus made of ice cream!
    #: Posted by yami  on  04/19  at  01:23 PM
  5. The importance of the Pope, and who he/she is, is vastly overrated in my opinion. I'm not a Catholic but I've worked for and with Catholics all my life, including quite a few ex-priests and ex-nuns, and few look to the Pope or the hierarchy for moral or ethical guidance. With no state to rule—unless one wishes to maintain that the 200 or so acres of the Vatican is a real state—the church is devoid of temporal power and with having ceded its long claimed moral power in recent years, why pay it any more heed than a fourth world potentate? The church in the end is all theatre. If not, then why have all the fancy robes, the rituals in theatrical settings, the secret conclaves, the white smoke/black smoke signals, the Swiss Guards, and the incense? Who else engages in such slight hand? The circus and Las Vegas shows.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  01:23 PM
  6. A family friend was in the Hitler Junge. It was required of everyone his age in those days. One could avoid it if one were gay (something like our military today), however, this option was not very popular. BW
    #: Posted by Bill Ware  on  04/19  at  01:24 PM
  7. Huh. People are arguing with the assertion that he was a former Hitler Youth member, which is pretty much given and admitted by Pope Rat himself, and ignoring the stuff about Zombie Pope and Borgias.

    I'm reading that as, "yeah, he might be undead, and he might be morally comparable to schemers and poisoners, and maybe he is going to set the church back a few hundred years, but it's not his fault they made him fight for the Nazis."

    Just so that's all cleared up.
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  01:27 PM
  8. Are zombie popes killed by holy water?
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  01:30 PM
  9. It's unfair to call him a Nazi. He was never a member of the Party, though he was conscripted in 1943 and put in an anti-aircraft battery. My father met folks in the same boat when he was working in Munich - there was little choice in the matter. Slam him on his record as a member of the Church - he certainly deserves it - but his past as a Wehrmacht conscript is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    And I'm not thinking zombie so much as Pope Budget Dracula I.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  01:33 PM
  10. Joseph Ratzinger was born in Marktl am Inn, in Bavaria, the son of a police officer who was staunchly anti-Nazi. In 1937 Ratzinger's father retired and settled in the town of Traunstein. When Ratzinger turned 14 in 1941, he was required by law to join the Hitler Youth, but according to his biographer John Allen he was not an enthusiastic member. He requested to be taken off the rolls and reportedly refused to attend a single meeting. In 1943, at the age of 16 he was, along with the rest of his class, drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, responsible for the guarding of a BMW plant outside Munich. He was then sent for basic infantry training and was posted to Hungary, where he worked setting up anti-tank defences until fleeing in April 1944 (an offense punishable by death).


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_XVI

    He is a reactionary fanatic, but he wasn't a Nazi at the age of 17.
    #: Posted by Alon Levy  on  04/19  at  01:36 PM
  11. Sean,

    Unfair? LOL!

    So what if membeship in the Hitler Youth was compulsory.

    Get with the program, dude! It's important to attack this guy.

    Facts? Fair?
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  01:37 PM
  12. "Get with the program, dude! It's important to attack this guy."

    Yes it is. He's a sociopolitical reactionary and I'm certain his papacy will do more harm than good. I'm just advocating attacking him on his record and purported vampirism.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  01:40 PM
  13. Of course it's fair. We're talking about the qualifications of the guy who's supposed to be the physical manifestation of divine holiness and moral law on Earth. The criteria should be a little difficult, don't you think?

    Maybe it's not reasonable to expect every German boy to resist first the Hitler Youth and then the Fuhrer's army. Okay; I can accept that. But isn't it reasonable to expect the Pope to show some moral courage?

    Incidentally, deserting the German army in 1945 is self-preservation, not bravery. Deserting the army in 1941 would have been courage....
    #: Posted by Andrew  on  04/19  at  01:41 PM
  14. Sean,

    I agree with you, of course.

    My sarcasm meter is permanently stuck somewhere between 'annoying' and 'obnoxious.' Sorry.
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  01:43 PM
  15. I think it's more Nosferatu III than Zombie Pope.

    What's with the permatroll?
    #: Posted by paperwight  on  04/19  at  01:45 PM
  16. Andrew, you miss my point. It's unfair to call him a Nazi because he was never a member of the Nazi Party. Neither the Hitler Youth nor the Wehrmacht are synonymous with the Nazi Party. Had he been in the SS, it would have been an entirely different matter. Moreover, his desertion was not in 1945, but April 1944 - two months BEFORE the Allied invasion of Normandy and the destruction of Army Group Centre on the Eastern Front. As I say, hammer his theology, hammer his social beliefs. His war record is largely irrelevant.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  01:49 PM
  17. I've always thought that Jesus would have wanted the head of his church to live in a palace and wear a white robe and funny hat.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  01:49 PM
  18. Still no one is quibbling with my characterization of him as a zombie. This is getting worrisome. I didn't mean anything serious, but is it possible I've stumbled on the truth? Am I going to be visited by Swiss bearing halberds tonight?
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  01:55 PM
  19. Although Wikipedia says that Ratzinger deserted in April 1944, the AP has it as April 1945, "in the final weeks of the war in Europe." See:

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=12&u=/ap/pope_ratzinger_profile
    #: Posted by Andrew  on  04/19  at  01:58 PM
  20. Unless one can be a zombie and a vampire at the same time, many people have disagreed with your characterization in this thread.

    Personally I think he is a very much alive zealot.
    #: Posted by Alon Levy  on  04/19  at  01:58 PM
  21. By popular demand, I have edited the points in dispute, leaving only the Unquestioned Truth in place.

    So why wasn't Sophia appointed? She'd make a great Pope.
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  02:05 PM
  22. My apologies, Andrew. You're right about the date of his desertion.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  02:06 PM
  23. I asked on Wikipedia's discussion page whether it was in 1944 or 1945.
    #: Posted by Alon Levy  on  04/19  at  02:09 PM
  24. Boo yah, atheism is going to be more popular than ever!

    Probably true. Note also that the guy's on-the-record comment to the effect that Catholicism is the only true way, and bitching about the former pope's relative ecumenism may also do wonders toward isolating the Vatican from much of the rest of the religious world... Might be wishful thinking, but if one of the effects of this guy's presence is that the conservative Moslem countries and the Vatican have a little more trouble now agreeing on how, exactly, to torpedo reproductive rights at the UN, well, Habemus papam.

    ('Course, the most reactionary types in some religions and sects may love him anyway, regardless of what he says about their particular brand o' supersitious nuttery, recognizing a kindred spirit and all.)
    #: Posted by ajmilne  on  04/19  at  02:10 PM
  25. Even if Pope Ratzinger doesn't drive millions of people into the welcoming arms of atheism, he'll at least help to diminish the influence of the Catholic church around the world. Any organized religion that refuses to be flexible in the face of a shifting cultural climate is doomed to irrelevance. That's probably why Christianity in general has been so successful all these years.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  02:13 PM
  26. Since zombies have no will of their own, I don't think they would make good popes. No, wait, maybe that's exactly what the college of cardinals wants. And he's old. Maybe he died and they reanimated him. You might just be onto something.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  02:26 PM
  27. As others have noted, his ties to the Nazi party are pretty weak. About all
    you can say is that he showed about the level of moral leadership you might
    expect from a typical teenage kid. That's not a ringing endorsement, but
    then, I wasn't raised to view Popes as moral exemplars.

    HIs characterization of liberals as "fascists" is bit more to the point. I also
    found his choice of name to be interesting frightening.
    Majikthese has more on that.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  02:34 PM
  28. ADL Welcomes Election of Cardinal Ratzinger as New Pope

    New York, NY, April 19, 2005 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today welcomed the election of German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as the new Pope, Benedict XVI. Under his leadership in Germany and Rome, the Catholic Church made important strides in improving Catholic-Jewish relations and atoning for the sin of anti-Semitism. Cardinal Ratzinger has been a leader in this effort and has made important statements in the spirit of sensitivity and reconciliation with the Jewish people.

    http://www.adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/44698_96.htm
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  02:40 PM
  29. Beware of Swiss bearing halberds!

    Just wanted to respond to this:

    The importance of the Pope, and who he/she is, is vastly overrated in my opinion. I'm not a Catholic but I've worked for and with Catholics all my life, including quite a few ex-priests and ex-nuns, and few look to the Pope or the hierarchy for moral or ethical guidance. With no state to rule—unless one wishes to maintain that the 200 or so acres of the Vatican is a real state—the church is devoid of temporal power and with having ceded its long claimed moral power in recent years, why pay it any more heed than a fourth world potentate?


    While the point may be valid when it comes to most of North America (I really can't tell), I would say there are more than a few good reasons why those of us in the rest of the world are paying attention.

    #1 obviously would be AIDS. While the Church' position on other forms of birth control may be annoying, only their opposition to condoms is partially responsible for a global pandemic.
    #2 there's the relationship with other religious groups, both Christian and otherwise, as mentioned above. I'm not personally very interested in that issue, but could imagine that his branding other Christian groups "deficient" or applying pressure to asian ministers who speculated that maybe other religions served some purpose in Gods plan didn't go down well everywhere. And it could have a destabilising influence around the world, eg. in the Philippines.
    #3 the Vatican puts a tremendous effort into lobbying the EU. With the admission of strongly catholic countries in the recent years, its voice has grown stronger.
    #4etc. Supporting Opus Dei, fighting abortion, homosexuality, gender equality, South American liberation theology, etc. etc.

    ---

    While some of the above posters are probably right that it'll drive off at least some moderate catholics in the Europe and US, one could speculate that that is precisely the idea. It's not here that the Church has hopes for it's future, but in Asia, South America and esp. Africa. Losing some of the excess fat in our parts of the world may make it easier to focus on the new markets.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  02:50 PM
  30. PZ has ample precedence for using "Pope Ratzinger". Italians often referred to JP II as "Papa Wojtyla".

    As for the name Benedict, Benedict XV (della Chiesa) was a fairly nice guy who couldn't get a lot done because the pope didn't carry enough clout in those days to bring the combatants in World War I to the peace table. On the other hand, Benedict IX was the ultimate party pope. His papal reign was broken up into three separate pieces because he variously fled from an outraged populace for a time or sold the papacy to his uncle because he got bored with it. Ratzinger has a lot of range in his Benedictine namesakes.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  02:52 PM
  31. Whether or not one can be both zombie and vampire may well depend upon the order in which one obtains those particular afflictions. Becoming a zombie requires that one first dies, then are raised, at which point you are free to show off your mortal wounds to your buddies and doubting Thomases and/or eat brains. However, being undead, vampires cannot die. They can be destoryed by a couple of different methods, which probably leave them in a state unsuitable for zombification. There is no prerequesite, to my knowledge, that would prevent a vampire from turning a zombie that they happend upon (in the general case).

    Hypothetically, a zombie, vampire or vampire-zombie could also be a werewolf. A zombie certainly persists in spite of any human disease they may suffer, fatal or no, and I see no reason why lycanthropy should be any different. Vampires are presumably immune to the fatal effects of disease, but could they perhaps catch a cold? The flu? Lupis?

    Personally, I vote for lich.
    #: Posted by fwiffo  on  04/19  at  02:53 PM
  32. PZ: I wasn't thinking a zombie. I was thinking more like a hobbit who gets all crazy-eyed when he sees the ring.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  02:58 PM
  33. If I were eleted, I'd choose the name Jeff.
    There needs to be a Pope Jeff.
    #: Posted by Craig  on  04/19  at  03:05 PM
  34. Regarding the growth of the catholic church in S America and Africa, if they truly hope for it, they might regret it later if their hopes are realized. There appears to be a strong tendency for the church in those regions to assume certain aspects of the local culture. That was OK for the church when the local culture was fairly local to Rome, but it might not go down so well with European catholics, much less Roman catholics, if the local culture is African or native S American. The catholic church doesn't have a very good record of suppressing local beliefs, even when they killed the locals to try to suppress those beliefs.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  03:11 PM
  35. The links between him and Nazism are weak as others have noted. He joined the Hitler Youth because he was required to do so. He was drafted into the army. He also deserted the German army. And do recall what generally happened to people who deserted the German army: they were summarily killed if caught. Indeed near the end of the war any male of appropriate age that was found not fighting was killed.

    Folks, anyone who is going to fault an old man for what he was required to do as a child by the Nazis, who did nasty things when they got a "no", is simply being unreasonable.

    I doubt think it is surprising that a theologically conservative pope was choosen given that John Paul II was himself theologically conservative and picked virtually all the cardinals.

    So any thoughts on the next pope will be? The cardinals clearly picked a very old man to be pope. And probably by design to have one that spends only a few years before a new one is picked.

    --
    Anti-spam: Replace "user" with "harlequin2"
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  03:12 PM
  36. "Save me, Jeebus!"
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  03:12 PM
  37. um, and if I were eleCted, too.
    #: Posted by Craig  on  04/19  at  03:13 PM
  38. Compare these two photos and then tell me that they aren't twins.



    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  03:14 PM
  39. I think this pope should have named himself "Pope Dracula". That would be even cooler than "Pope Jeff".
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  03:15 PM
  40. Oops, sorry. Didn't know your system automatically puts up image tags. I'll try this:

    Pope

    Hobbit
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  03:20 PM
  41. All right, they are really being stubborn about not viewing their images at all without going to their site, so last try:

    Hobbit

    Twins I tell you.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  03:22 PM
  42. OK, yeah... Pope Dracula would be cool.
    Besides, "Pope Jeff" sounds like a Pauly Shore movie or something.
    #: Posted by Craig  on  04/19  at  03:24 PM
  43. Am I really reading, over and over and over on this thread "it's unfair to associate him with Nazis just because he was a Hitler Youth and fought in the army by running an anti-aircraft emplacement... he was just following orders"?

    Among us (cultural) catholics, Ratzinger is well known, and has been for 20 years. We now have as pope the most radical right-winger among the cardinals, bar none. There is no competition at all.

    It's almost like the cardinals elected him with the specific intent of destroying the church. God bless them for it.
    #: Posted by Covington  on  04/19  at  03:38 PM
  44. I took your links and moved them up top. You've convinced me. Keep that pope away from the ring!
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  03:39 PM
  45. I think something that is being understated on the internet, where people are picking on the Hitler Youth thing, is the fact that this guy was hushing people during the whole Catholic Pedophilia scandal. He supposedly wrote a memo reminding people that it was against the rules to talk publicly. So, at least my opinion, protecting pedophiles is a much more news-worthy topic than is being part of some mandatory nazi organization at age 14.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  03:52 PM
  46. zombie schmombie, he much more resembles Emperor Palpatine.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  03:54 PM
  47. Guess who it was who made the decision to return Cardinal Law to prominence and prestige?
    #: Posted by Covington  on  04/19  at  04:01 PM
  48. Hey... if this guy:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bawden
    can be elected pope by his mom and six others in a storefront in Kansas, then I can be Pope Jeff if a few of you agree.
    #: Posted by Craig  on  04/19  at  04:01 PM
  49. Obviously 14-year-olds can not be held to the same moral standards as adults.

    The previous pope was very telegenic, and aggressive. Ratzinger is very untelegenic. If he is a hard-liner, that will--no, may--serve to alienate americans from the church. The international child molesting conspiracy didn't alienate them, after all. on the bad side, christianity is becoming primarily a 3rd-world phenomenon, and those places often have foul and unwestern cultures rife with things like wife-beating, daughter-selling, honor-killing, vigilanteism, anti-intellectualism, etc, and could shape christianity into a much more illiberal thing.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  04:03 PM
  50. zombie schmombie, he much more resembles Emperor Palpatine.

    Actually I thought he bears a closer resemblance to this madman:
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  04:42 PM
  51. Nazi or non-Nazi, zombie or vampire, bad hobbit or good hobbit, monkey or robot, logic and reason suggest strongly that what we may have on our hands is some kind of Doomsday Pope:

    http://www.bibleprobe.com/last10popes.htm
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  04:44 PM
  52. could you give us a summary? some of us don't have 15 minutes to waste reading so much about religious crap.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  05:00 PM
  53. Basically, based on the latest events in Popery, Jesus is coming real soon now.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  05:04 PM
  54. The thing is Comm, this cat is supposed to be the infallible voice of morality and the exemplar of strength of ethical character; the highest out of the 1.1 billion they could have chosen, and at least the best out of the hundred or so that were in the running. To choose him makes the RCC look terrible just when they were starting to get past the reputation of being the archetypical sick medieval torturing fucks, and modern day enablers/protectors of pedophiliacs. As an atheist I'm personally happy they made such a poor choice, maybe it will chase out some of their codependent victims. But for my catholic friends I have sympathy; they were all excited, and I can literally hear the let down in their voices and read between the lines as they try to put lipstick on the guy.
    On a side note I'll tell you something kind of funny; some of the less cynical democratic folks I know, who it must be said have a good heart, were trying to tell others not to make too big a deal about this clown's shortcomings or the religious right might use it to try and paint critics of BushCo/Delay/Frist as being hostile to religion. Sad I know.
    #: Posted by DarkSyde  on  04/19  at  05:05 PM
  55. That end-times Pope stuff has been going on for quite a long time. I first heard about it in the early 90s. Basically what I heard about it is that the next pope (which is now the current pope, Benedict XVI) is going to be evil and do bad stuff leading to bad consequences. Then the pope after him is going to be anti-christ himself. In the flesh.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  05:14 PM
  56. "Jesus is coming real soon now."

    Sure. Sure he is. Any day now.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  05:25 PM
  57. Character in a book says he's coming back real soon, 2000 years of cricket chirping go by, and some people still believe it. Any day now.

    Why I didn't go into televangelism, I have no idea. Some kind of 'conscience' crap.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  05:29 PM
  58. he'll at least help to diminish the influence of the Catholic church around the world.


    If I'm reading things right, the big political worry for the Church at the moment is the South Americans. Voting for Ratzinger was a vote for suppressing dissent. How the South Americans will react to being quashed remains to be seen. How do you spell schism?

    Actually, I'm probably over-analysing. The reason Ratzinger got in was the sermon he did before the election where he basically said, "Do God's will and vote for me" while zapping the cardinals with his vampire stare.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  05:40 PM
  59. John Paul pretty much screwed the church with his cult of personality. It's not so obvious that any successor can easily undo that.

    Ratzinger least of all.

    The two of them tried to ignore the pedophila scandal (which started earlier, much earlier and was/is not solely a US Catholic sporting event); and JP only did anything at all when it appeared that the flow of Peter's Pences from the richest Catholics in the world might be intercepted by a bunch of child victims with good plaintiff lawyers.

    Terrible misjudgment. By the time the Vatican did anything at all, it had driven out all the decent and informed Catholics, leaving it with nothing but a bunch of charwomen who see Mary in pizza sauce.

    The evangelicals are eating Rome's lunch in S. America and even among Filipinos. A bunch of my Filipino friends are Assembly of God now.

    The Church accomplished an interesting balancing act for a long time -- date it from 1849, when the French restored Pio Nono, who promptly extinguished those radical streetlights that the '48ers had put up, to around 1950 when Pius 12 issued Humani Generis, which allowed educated Catholics to make spiritual compromises to exist in the modern world.

    It was an unstable situation, and it had to fall in one of two directions. With John 23, it looked as if the Church might move away from medievalism, sort of like the change that turned Congregationalists into Unitarians.

    I think that 25 years ago, a lot of modernist Catholics thought John Paul would be a modernizer, too, because he had been a pope-in-the-world and was against the side of the devils.

    What they didn't realize is that he was all Polish and therefore almost untouched by anything that happened since around 1648.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  06:22 PM
  60. Why has nobody mentioned that it was his birthday three days ago, and so Ratzinger was clearly elected as a birthday present?
    What do you give the guy who has everything? The Papacy.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  06:23 PM
  61. I second the choice of Emperor Palpatine.

    And here I was hoping the next pope would take the name Lando II. Or Pope Jesus.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  06:26 PM
  62. Dear PZ

    I love reading your stuff, and as a raving atheist, I am right in there with you, but I think that giving vent to school-kid vitriol is rather poor taste, as well as tactically bad. Its exactly the ad-hominem mistake the ID/creationist loonys pick up on.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  06:32 PM
  63. I for one welcome our new theocratic overlord. I'd like to remind him that as an influential blogger of the godless atheist left, I could be of great use in rounding up heathens to toil in their underground sugar mines ...
    #: Posted by DarkSyde  on  04/19  at  06:35 PM
  64. PZM, Graham, et al,

    I'm an atheist/agnostic myself, a staunch defender of science on my side of the blogosphere.

    I don't give a Ratzinger's ass if you want to lampoon the guy for looking like mad Bilbo, Nosferato, or Little Orphan Annie. If you don't like his politics, or his views, slam away. If he should've done more about child abuse in the Church, have at him.

    But the "Hitler Youth" bit is a half-truth, inaccurate by omission, a cheap childish propaganda ploy.

    "At last, sir, have you no shame?"

    If pointing that out makes me, in your view, an "ID/creationist loony," so be it.
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  06:52 PM
  65. Hope I'm not drifting the thread too much, but the funny thing about the new poop pope (that really was an accident, I'm just sacreligious enough to let it stand) being a former Hitler Youth is that the 9th Circuit just said it's ok for Holocaust survivors to sue the Vatican Bank for profiting from Nazism. So, do you think that the Vatican will settle quickly and generously?

    (By the way, I don't think that a radical right-wing world leader is immune from being called a poop just because he's "Holy".)
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  07:01 PM
  66. Oh, I don't know why I decided to just unload in Your comment section, Dr. PZ; maybe because you're such an infidel. I really had this moment, a bit before they announced Ratz, where I was feeling optimistic about Tutu. I mean, how great would that have been, a black, pro-condom (read anti-manslaughter-of-poor-Catholic-Africans)Pope? That would have been so cool.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  07:15 PM
  67. Hypothetically, a zombie, vampire or vampire-zombie could also be a werewolf.

    Lycanthropy was considered a prerequisite to being a vampire -- you were a werewolf in life, you died, and you came back as a vampire.

    Zombies, not so much overlap, since zombies are Caribbean and vampires are primarily Eastern European, though co-opted by British writers like Byron, Le Fanu and Stoker.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  07:26 PM
  68. It's a half-truth that he was in the Hitler Youth? What's the false half?

    As usual, the right-winger seizes on an irrelevancy to defend a rotten guy; I wish you all would stop posing.
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  08:03 PM
  69. And to others: I refuse to take the pope seriously. What am I supposed to do? Treat the appointment of hateful old tight-ass to the top position in an archaic medieval hierarchy reverently? Phbbphbptt.
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  08:06 PM
  70. the full truth is that membership was required, and the ADL has commended him for his post-war actions

    the half-truth is "he was in the Hitler Youth," without any clarification, context, or background.
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  08:28 PM
  71. It's not just that Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth, assisted in firing at the American and British forces fighting against the Nazis, took part without objection in Nazi exploitation of Hungarian slave labor, and deserted the Wehrmacht at the end like the proverbial rat (while many other German youth did find ways to evade service or resist) - it's that, for 60 years afterwards, in the middle of the confessingest culture in the world, Ratzinger has (reportedly - someone pls post a correction if you know otherwise) never apologized for or publicly regretted in any way his affiliation with the Nazi effort. It won't be long until we see a new biography, Hitler's Other Pope.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  08:32 PM
  72. "half-truth (hăf'trūth', häf'-)
    n.

    A statement, especially one intended to deceive, that omits some of the facts necessary for a full description or account."


    Note that no 'false half' is required.
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  08:33 PM
  73. The "half-truth" you neglected to include was that he was "forced" to join the Hitler Youth and defend the motherland. Because his official biographer says that his dad was anti-Nazi and that even in his immaturity he didn't want to join and then deserted, it is impossible to attribute a tendency toward authoritarianism and fanatacism to him. Oh yeah, and a Jewish group released a statement in favor of his papacy.

    I don't particularly care if he was once a Nazi, since Nazism doesn't exert much control over the populace these days. I am concerned that a dogmatic anitiquarian Catholic is now considered the moral authority to a large percentage of a few continents' population. He can only continue to wreak havoc upon humanity, especially the Third World and women (through his position on contraceptives) and the ability for non-heterosexuals to be treated as humans. He also played a major role in trying to cover up the pedophilia scandal, indicating a tendency to favor the maintenance of power of the church over the well-being of the congregation.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  08:35 PM
  74. So much pontification on the pontiff... I say we hold a confab of atheist sparrows to elect someone (me) to wear big hats, castigate credulity and prattle about Popper. Get busy forging my angler ring!
    #: Posted by fwiffo  on  04/19  at  08:46 PM
  75. Naw I'm with PZ, Comm and I can't imagine why you wouldn't be if you are as you claim an atheist/agnostic and someone who is a defender of science, not to mention simple morality.
    Historically the RCC went centuries on end tearing people into peices while they were still alive and screaming for mercy, burning people alive including old women, retarded people, and kids, stomping on science and reason. They've been corrupted, been caught lying, covering up, and taking advantage of their power all through the years as much as any king or tyrant in Europe did. Kings and tyrants in the western world are mostly a thing of the past, they're still chugging right along.
    (And Nate) What's relevent and revolting today is the senior management was shuffling around priests, that were butt-fucking little boys, to keep them from getting caught. They only took token actions when i started being a financial drain as a result of lawsuits. Talk about special treatment: Any other organization that got nailed for enabling pedophilia, the crooks would all be in jail, and anyone who helped conceal it and knowingly put those sick bastards in new parishes to prey on more children again would likely be sitting in prison for life, and the org would probably be either disbanded or have their assets seized by the police and courts. Where they or anyone else gets off pretending these kooks have some kind of sacred mantle of morality is utterly incomprehensible to me. The Hitler Youth stuff simply points out that this particular pedophile enabling scumbag also had nothing unusual in the way of ethics or courage from early on in his life. And that's not an attack on religion, it's an attack on the senior leadership of the RCC, just as an attack on Clinton in 1998 wouldn't constitute an attack on the US or on democracy. I really get sick of these assholes and their incessant apologists hiding behind religion to minimize their criminally egregious acts, be it now, or 300 years ago.
    #: Posted by DarkSyde  on  04/19  at  08:48 PM
  76. Seriously, get a life, people. This was a post where I'm making light of this cramped little man who has been exalted, and you are freaking out over the fact that I mocked his membership in the Hitler Youth. Is this some deadly serious point in his biography that must not ever be mentioned? Apparently, mentioning his undead status, the Inquisition, hatred of everyone but male celibates is OK, but oooh, referring to his admitted association with a genuinely nasty organization in his childhood...that touches a raw nerve.

    Why is that?
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  08:48 PM
  77. "Why is that?"

    Because i expect a full respect for the facts, not just propaganda adn half truths from "Mr. Science."

    Paul at Wizbang also gloated about 'touching a raw nerve' when he was called on his half-truths and mis-statements.
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  08:55 PM
  78. Nah, PZM, you're right.

    He's a "rotten guy."

    Say anything you want about him. Just make sh*t up, Go ahead. No one here will object.
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  08:58 PM
  79. Fafblog Explains Pope's Undeadness

    as follows: he's not a zombie --
    that's Giblets inside a flayed Ratzinger skin, saying
    I'm standing on top of two dwarves and a monkey just to reach the point where I can operate the head properly.

    at http://fafblog.blogspot.com/
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  08:58 PM
  80. Good grief. Did you think this post was a thoughtful analysis of the new Pope?

    And again, you avoid any of the substantive flaws in this man's character, as well as the silly idea that he is undead, to whine about a simple statement of fact, that he was a member of the Hitler Youth. Your answer is no answer.

    I expect if I did somehow address your weird obsession with his past in the Hitler Youth to your satisfaction (not that that is possible; you're clearly on a crusade here), you'd just move on to berate me for having absolutely no evidence that Sophia Loren was ever under consideration for the papacy. I freely confess that I suspect she didn't get a single vote from the college of cardinals, but I went ahead and posted the fantasy anyway.
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  09:07 PM
  81. Say anything you want about him. Just make sh*t up...

    What?! I'm confused! Is he or is he not a zombie?

    PZ! I need some facts<i> here! And <i>Nature isn't covering this!
    #: Posted by ajmilne  on  04/19  at  09:09 PM
  82. And what's this I hear about Sophia Loren!?

    So disillusioned...
    #: Posted by ajmilne  on  04/19  at  09:10 PM
  83. It's OK. Since she didn't make pope, she doesn't have to take any silly vow of celibacy, and she can skip the mandatory cannibalism and ritual child-rape sessions.

    On the whole, I think it's a good thing Sophia didn't get involved with that rather unsavory organization.
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  09:15 PM
  84. I expect if I did somehow address your weird obsession with his past in the Hitler Youth to your satisfaction ..

    Give it a shot.
    #: Posted by The Commissar  on  04/19  at  09:16 PM
  85. Damn. Now I'm going to get raked over the coals for failing to mention that the cannibalism is only symbolic and that the child-rape is optional.
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  09:17 PM
  86. Sorry, Commissar, I'm not your analyst. You're going to have to come to grips with your obsessions on your own.
    #: Posted by PZ Myers  on  04/19  at  09:20 PM
  87. Ah, PZ won't be satisfied until the Zombie Pope meme is fully fleshed out.

    Look at it in context: Christianism is all about the worship of a reanimated corpse, isn't it? Der Panzerpope is simply the embodiment of this ideal...

    (Of course, ritual consumption of this "resurrected" body is the core sacrament of this particular cult; if BennyDictUs is to fulfill this completely ... well, I donwanna be anywhere near the chapel when he first says, "Eat me.")

    (But if Pope Sophia made the same request...)
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  09:23 PM
  88. well, I donwanna be anywhere near the chapel when he first says, "Eat me."

    Can't see 'Eat me'... I figure it's gonna be more like 'Brains... Braaaaaains...'

    Which is appropriate enough, given this schmuck's attitude toward anything approaching independent thought.
    #: Posted by ajmilne  on  04/19  at  09:34 PM
  89. You see, Commissar is able to determine New Pope's intentions when he was 14 from the biographer's statement that New Pope told him he didn't want to join and that he deserted, and the added "evidence" that youth were forced to join the Hitler Youth. Of course, there were never any youth that actually chose to become part of the organization. Because it was mandatory, everybody that joined did so against their will, and we have a post-hoc, self-serving statement that New Pope was forced to do so. Commissar also has the ability to determine Professor Myers's intention of listing the fact that New Pope was in the Hitler Youth, therefore sharing with those who read the comments that Professor Myers was engaging in a "half-truth" for not qualifying that fact with the speculation about whether or not New Pope joined voluntarily or was forced to do so. As far as I can tell, the only thing we know for certain is that New Pope was in the Hitler Youth. The rest is mere speculation, and as I and others stated above, it is largely irrelevant to the abundant criticisms that may and should be lodged against New Pope now.
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  09:39 PM
  90. Now I agree with Keanus BTW, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference over time. Folks are pretty stratified in their political views, this guy may in fact drive more people away than he swings over. But he is an international political force, and he's a prefectly legit recipeint of criticism or defense from same for that reason.

    The gripe against anyone criticizing Ratzinger for anything seems to be two-fold in rationale:

    1. One goes something like "a criticism of the Pope is an attack on Catholics and Christians, and you're not Catholic so you have no place criticizing the Pope". That's nonsense. Are you Mexican-American? Then you better not criticize Alberto Gonzales. Do you criticize the political ideology of Log Cabin Republicans? Then you're a gay hater and you have no business opining unless you're a gay man and a Republican. Do you criticize Ken Lay the CEO of Enron? Then you hate all employees of natural gas companies, and if you're not an employee of a natural gas company you really shouldn't be talking ...

    2. The other one goes something like "You shouldn't criticize this Pope because it might chase away catholic democrats and the religious right might try and use it against us to paint us as anti-Godly ...
    Newsflash: The fundies are already are painting democrats that way with all their might, every second, minute, hour, night and day. They aren't going to stop because we withold criticism. That's why guys like Commisar, who are atheist/agnostic, find themsleves defending him from criticism. They judge he will be an asset to them and they judge rightly imo.

    I don't have anything against Catholics, I have something against this choice and my impression so far is that plenty of Catholics feel exactly the same way I do for similar reasons. And I seriously doubt many Catholics that haven't already been swung over politically are going to budge. If they already harbor disdain for DeLay or Frist or Bush or Neo-con/Theo-con ideology, I don't see them running into the arms of the enemy and embracing the immorlaity of the extremist evangelical controlled elements of the GOP simply because I or anyone else criticises the Pope.

    Now why is it understandable that we non Catholics and non Christians might criticize this Pope and why are justified doing so? For the same damn reason we're justified critcizing Alberto Gonzales or Ken Lay. It affects our lives directly, Catholic, Christian, atheist, Hindu, whatever.
    We criticize this new Pope because his screwy proclamations will affect US politics which will impact all of us. If he holes up and doesn't stick his nose into other people's business, I'd be more than happy to leave him be and I'm sure everyone would agree. But Ratzinger is unlikely to do that ... odds are he will intrude, he will meddle, and he will work to force his religious beliefs on all of us via political means whether we are Catholic, Christian, or Hindu. He will issue commands and probably work with the GOP in consolidating political support to issue the US Conregssional equavelent of a compulsory fatwa. He's fair and open game for criticism.
    #: Posted by DarkSyde  on  04/19  at  10:20 PM
  91. PZ, as far as WWII goes, I'll think of him as, "Pope Dubya".
    #: Posted by  on  04/19  at  10:36 PM
  92. "Damn. Now I'm going to get raked over the coals for failing to mention that the cannibalism is only symbolic and that the child-rape is optional."

    Actually, PZ, this official Catholic thingamabob says that the cannibalism is NOT symbolic:
    http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1855
    "For Catholics, that Communion wafer* literally is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ."

    *or as I like to call it, "Soylent Jesus."
    #: Posted by Craig  on  04/19  at  10:41 PM
  93. At the age of 14 I made a noisy spectacle of publicly refusing the membership card of the Socialist Youth - an organization that EVERYBODY was a member of. At the age of 18 I made an even nastier public show of refusing membership in the Communist Party. Yet somehow, I have no wish to become the next Pope....r
    #: Posted by coturnix  on  04/19  at  11:03 PM
  94. So, a rat singer will wear the shoes of the fisherman.
    #: Posted by Ken Cope  on  04/19  at  11:47 PM
  95. And to others: I refuse to take the pope seriously

    It's such a relieve to read someone who isn't afraid to make fun of all this nonsense. For the past few weeks it seems the media, people in the pub - even some of my non-religious friends have been tip-toeing reverentially around the story. I watch the crowds, the weeping and wailing, the bizarre proclamations and I can't help but fear for the future of the human race.

    These people make statements ("spirits speaking through them" ??) that were they not protected by the wrappings of religious faith, would be enough to get most people committed for a psychiatric disorder. Yet there is almost no debate as to whether their bizarre mediaeval opinions should be allowed to impact on the lives of millions of people. It's pretty depressing to me and that old phrase "opium of the people" keeps coming to mind.
    #: Posted by Neil  on  04/19  at  11:56 PM
  96. Another legitimate way of avoiding membership in the Hitler Youth was to be a jew like my father in law (he so wanted to be a member like all his friends). This particular option was not particularily popular either.
    I am sure that if Jesus had been german he would´ve been a member, render unto Ceaser and all that stuff.
    Pz sorry that your humor got a little derailed by the public but it happens.
    #: Posted by  on  04/20  at  12:03 AM
  97. I'm disappointed in you, PZ, for pulling the "Hitler Youth" gambit, given that the Pope was born in 1927. If you knew anything about the history of Nazi Germany (and you do know about my interest in WWII, Nazi, and Holocaust history), you would know that, after 1938, joining the Hitler Youth was not optional. It was compulsory. Every German boy was automatically enrolled, whether the parents approved or not, whether the child wanted to join or not. (Ratzinger would have turned 14 in 1941.) Your substantive criticisms of the new Pope don't bother me in the least (I'm not particularly happy with this choice for Pope myself), but the Hitler Youth/Nazi crack was nothing more than a cheap shot.
    #: Posted by Orac  on  04/20  at  01:25 AM
  98. I was thinking The Emperor when I saw the new pope, but then, I'm a Star Wars fan (original trillogy obviously)
    #: Posted by  on  04/20  at  01:51 AM
  99. Orac, I think all of that has been established. Read the rest of the comments already. I believe PZ has read and absorbed the factual content of those comments and doesn't dispute them. What more could anyone reasonably require?

    And as PZ has repeatedly pointed out, the circumstances of Benedict's youth are as nothing besides his mature political beliefs. Not to mention his ring-bearing cannibalistic undead status.
    #: Posted by  on  04/20  at  03:24 AM
  100. Yeah, we're all "rooting" for Sophia Loren. (using the Australian venacular)!
    #: Posted by  on  04/20  at  05:06 AM