PZ Myers. 2005 Sep 21. Jesus Christ. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/jesus_christ/>. Accessed 2008 Nov 20.
Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Wednesday, September 21, 2005
Jesus Christ
At the intersection of highways 28 and 59, the two main roads out of this small town I live in, there is a prominent billboard. You can imagine my reaction as I drove off to the airport last week, and saw this:
Why? This doesn't make sense.
I tried to view it through Christian eyes; it wasn't that hard, I was brought up Lutheran. What came to mind is this…
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.Matthew 6
Is throwing up a giant sign the same as meekly making a personal commitment to your god? Does your Jesus need his portrait raised up by roadsides?
Damned grandstanding hypocrites. Yeah, you're pious. Good for you. Now get to work on the humility.
Looking at it as an atheist, it's even worse.
No, I don't trust in Jesus, and I think I resent these arrogant christolaters trying to speak for me and my town. I suspect they'd freak out if there were a sign reading "Mohammed: I trust in you" or "Don't waste your time on god-myths". Anything that challenged the majority viewpoint here would elicit much pulpit-thumping and outraged squeaking from the sanctimonious.
Also as an atheist, I am not pleased at the reminder that the town is populated by priggish idiots who erect testimonials to their pretentious religiosity. I don't trust in you, Jesus; I think you're a chancre on humanity.
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Maybe you should hire a billboard and put you're opinion on it, see how they like it.
Have you dound out who put up the sign?#: Posted by on 09/21 at 08:20 PM -
"I don't trust in you, Jesus; I think you're a chancre on humanity."
Well said. This stuff drives me nuts as well. You see the same kind of thing around here. Or drive the 1 hour south to Colorado Springs, home to Focus on the Family and other nut job groups.
Jesus may be the chancre, but the piggish idiots who follow him and shove it your face are the pathogens.#: Posted by on 09/21 at 08:23 PM -
Here in Kansas we brave handful of evolution supporters (holed up in Lawrence, mostly, in a defensive perimeter) have our own little version of this - a bumpersticker that cheerily declares "Darwin Loves You!" Such a subtle yet delightfully nasty little reply to the loudmouthed twice-born rubes around here - never fails to make me smile! We oughta put *that* on a billboard in ten-foot-high letters. Of course, it wouldn't last a day...
#: Posted by on 09/21 at 08:29 PM
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We have the same sort of thing here in Austin. There are billboards all over the place that says "God Loves You" in about 8 different languages and a few that say "If you must curse, use your own name!-God." You'd think the one liberal outpost in Texas would be free of such things, but no...
#: Posted by on 09/21 at 08:32 PM
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I much prefer the old bumber sticker that said:
"Jesus saves
at 1st Federal Savings and Loan"#: Posted by on 09/21 at 08:32 PM -
In fact, since the billboard is anonymous, it could be understood as following Matthew's advice. Or is it doubly hyprocrite?
#: Posted by on 09/21 at 08:44 PM
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"Jesus saves, passes to Moses-GOOOAAAAAL!"
#: Posted by on 09/21 at 08:44 PM
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near my college, there's a wooden billboard that's been there since i was a prospective student - it says SAYSF... and then in small print next to it "seek and ye shall find" as a result of my crummy eyesight, it took me two years until i noticed the fine print and until then i thought it was just some random nonsense.
if i had a billboard with a jesus theme, it would say:
Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and valuable prizes
or... (my favorite)
Jesus saves and takes half damage -
But it has such godawful cheesy art, how can you hate anything with that much over-the-top kitsch? It's like hating a Hummel figurine!
Oh, wait... -
It strikes me that it isn't Jesus who's the problem (all that nice stuff about humbleness and loving your neighbor and forgiving people who make mistakes and all that). It's all the people who are too busy trying to kiss up to Jesus to follow his advice...
#: Posted by Mrs. Coulter on 09/21 at 08:52 PM
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Up near Tacoma, Washington, there's a giant sign that once said "JESUS LOVES YOU," but about five years ago mutated to "JESUS CARES ABOUT YOU." Coming soon: "JESUS JUST WANTS TO BE FRIENDS."
#: Posted by Jim Anderson on 09/21 at 08:56 PM
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"I don't trust in you, Jesus; I think you're a chancre on humanity."
That hardly seems fair. Do you really mean to say that, or -- granting the gist of your statement -- would it be more accurate or fair to say that it's many of his followers who are a chancre on humanity?#: Posted by PotatoStew on 09/21 at 08:57 PM - The billboard seems a bit superfluous. I mean, how often does Jesus drive down highways 28 and 59? Especially this time of year when He's busy with high school football in the South...
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When driving on I-80, going from Nebraska into Wyoming there is a giant Jesus statue looking down over wyoming.
It is ridiculous. -
If they truly trusted Jesus they wouldn't need to put up huge billboards proclaiming same, would they? Kissing God's ass seems unseemly, but what do I know, I'm a panthteist...
+++ - I'm not sure if your contradiction really holds here. Your invocation of the disapproval of public prayer is easily answered: they're not praying publicly, they're witnessing to othrs.
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Can you go draw horns on him at night with him smoking weed or something?? ;)
Bet that would get your community talking! -
When driving on I-80, going from Nebraska into Wyoming there is a giant Jesus statue looking down over wyoming.
Here in South Carolina, we know better than to put giant Jesus statues near the highway. Instead, we have ...
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/SCGAFpeach.html
Unfortunately, we do have our share of Jesus road signs.#: Posted by on 09/21 at 09:13 PM -
Assholes of faith constitute by far the most hypocritical mob of self-serving mushminds anywhere. I regularly have evangelicals showing up at my door (although after the last time this may change), but imagine the uproar if I stood outside a Baptist church on Sunday morning and, as it emptied, started handing out "freethinker" tracts to the flock. They'd not only scream holy hell, they'd call the cops and try to get the courts involved. They're all about 20-foot-high idols of their syphilitic hero and all about censoring my views at the drop of a hat.
Religion in America is a disease. Maybe only the symptoms of fulminant cases wreak havoc on those of us fortunate enough to be immune, but the damage its victims do -- or would do if they had their untrammelled way -- is, in the 21st century, stupefying.
At least in certain important niches, there's a terrible triad of ignorance, refractoriness, and persistence that turns them into rabid dogs -- dumb as nature allows, incapable of learning anything new, and determined to fight to the death. And people wonder why things heat up when these zombies-on-meth circle the wagons for yet another long session of firing extraordinarily loud blanks at those not infected.
Since they might as well be aliens, I refer to the causative agent as the religious byrus, after the infectious menace in Dreamcatcher.
Whew! It's been quite the day. Might have emptied the magazine on that one.#: Posted by on 09/21 at 09:29 PM -
Over at Museum of Hoaxes:
Giant Jesus Prevents Auto Accidents -
I'm of Mrs. Coulter's mindset on this. I think that Jesus had a lot of fairly interesting things to say, at least according to the Gospels. Actually trusting what he had to say would lead one in directions that would profoundly afflict the comfort of those self-promoting, self-congratulatory pseudo-followers who I imagine put that billboard up.
Someone should tell these people that the single best form of witnessing would be for them to be exemplary, humble (and not self-congratulatorily humble, but REALLY humble) members of the community. But that is likely beyond them.#: Posted by paperwight on 09/21 at 09:34 PM - I think, PZ, that the billboard is supposed to give you and warm and fuzzy feelings, pointing out the gaping god-sized hole in your life into which Jesus will fit ever so nicely. See? Someone you can trust. The billboard says so. I imagine the people who paid for it are just full of warm fuzzies when they admire their handiwork. They're full of other stuff, too, but it perplexes them when others look upon their chosen god-image and do not feel what they feel. Just ask my Mom and Dad, for example. [sigh]
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Since I feel that a spirit of competition is developing among the commenters about who has the biggest Jesus, I must point out that we Latins are Numero Uno in erecting pretentious testimonials to our pretentious religiosity. The city of Sao Paolo, Brasil, for example, is overlooked by a tremendous figure of Christ with open arms standing on the Azucar Hill. This was so successful that nearly all towns with a suitable hill now have their own impressive Christs. Quito, for a change, has a white angel with fantastic triangular wings.
#: Posted by on 09/21 at 09:35 PM
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"The city of Sao Paolo, Brasil, for example, is overlooked by a tremendous figure of Christ with open arms standing on the Azucar Hill."
I was thinking that was Rio de Janeiro, or is that where they have a giant cross? I know that Amarillo, Texas has a cross at least 200 feet tall right off the highway. Otherwise a charming place, though.
I have nothing against Jesus the historical figure or even the Jesus of the Bible (who may not have lived), but because of what he's been turned into, I enjoy telling particularly obnoxious Christians that Jesus' chief accomplishments were inventing Hell and attracting a lot of followers. In modern times there was a certain man who also had a large following and is maybe best known for establishing genuinely hellish places with kinda Teutonic-sounding names. Can't remember the dude's handle, though...#: Posted by on 09/21 at 09:43 PM -
The trouble with the chancre billboard would be the confrontational nature of it. Well, then again, the real trouble is that so many people view atheism as inherently confrontational. Perhaps we should go for "Humanism Is Great" or "Trust Science!" I'd put "secularism" up there as well, but the bastards have made that into a dirty word in this country.
#: Posted by on 09/21 at 09:45 PM
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Isn't the problem with the message its apparent declaration that faith is anti-intellectual. Trust what? Who says what Jesus meant? Trust whom? Who is your source for interpreting the Bible?
The history of Christianity has included many, many strains of intellectual struggle to achieve meaning and enlightenment. The history of fundamentalism, on the other hand, is opposed to that struggle.
The idea that one only needs to Trust Jesus is as stupidly simplistic as All You Need Is Love. A better message might be Understand Jesus.#: Posted by on 09/21 at 09:49 PM -
A few hours northeast of Lubbock, outside Groom, there's a giant aluminum cross right by the side of I-40. The signs claim it's the largest cross in the Western Hemisphere, but there's on in Illinois that's about eight feet taller.
Not everything's bigger in Texas.#: Posted by on 09/21 at 09:52 PM -
you need to check this out----------I hope they come out with this game!
http://www.jesusfreakin.com#: Posted by on 09/21 at 09:59 PM -
"Mohammed: I trust in you"
Do it. See, if you put up a myth one people will be in an uproar. But if you put one for mohammed, it'll be freedom of relgion. If people have a uproar about it, you'll have good allies on your side who demand the sign be kept up.
With your big university paychecks, I'm sure you can afford it#: Posted by on 09/21 at 10:05 PM - There used to be a couple of billboards in St. Louis that just said "JESUS". It became a tradition among my godless friends to loudly exclaim "Jesus!" and swerve upon spotting it.
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we have a red neon flashing "Jesus Saves" near here. i've always thought it a great hack to add in neon bulbs below "and eats at Joe's". alas, it's not like it's in Times Square, or even in Boston.
to me, the trouble with the Mrs Coulter's mindset is that Christians tend to value biblical criticism even less than Jews (which isn't a lot), and while they could learn a lot if they did, they don't. Jesus' own views were, on the textual evidence, a lot different than what the church founded in his name eventually embraced, the latter being invented by a guy named Paul. -
Not everything's bigger in Texas.
maybe Texas needs Viagra?
well, it's hurricanes look bigger.
we'll see how profitable investing in the oil and gas business there looks in a couple of days.
damn, who put all those damn refineries in such a storm-prone area? oh, that's right, noone but the hand of the free-market did. hmmmm ... . -
On Route 23 in Hillsdale, NY, there was an extremely non-descript billboard reading "Please God", black letters on a white background. I never could figure out whether it was supposed to be repeated by the viewer as a request, or was to be taken as a command. All in all, it seemed like a peculiar way to spend a couple thousand bucks, or whatever the going rate is for billboards...
#: Posted by on 09/21 at 10:16 PM
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The image looks Catholic -- they're big on the Radiating Holy Person art. (I remember my Minnesota grandmother's house badly overhung with such images.) But the message screams Evangelical. Are some Catholics becoming evangelicals now?
The best thing about the Catholic church I grew up in was the sensibility to not witness. I grew up in the decade after Vatican II, though, when the church was moderating it's superstitions.#: Posted by on 09/21 at 10:28 PM -
The best thing about the Catholic church I grew up in was the sensibility to not witness. I grew up in the decade after Vatican II, though, when the church was moderating it's superstitions.
the Catholics are a strange bunch of dudes. i was raised Catholic. whole nine yards, Catholic elementary school, Catholic high school. apart from a great repression of sex which, as near as i could tell from my and my peers behavior, never worked, the other aspect was the Central Authority's selective repression of heretical or almost heretical opinion.
they might slam the idea of women in the priesthood, or birth control, but when folks like my parents condemned the pronouncements of Vatican II despite their coming from Authority of best blood and despite my needing to learn them because we were taught them, this showed that the church was not a friend of innovative thinking far more immediately than the history of its treatment of Galileo. they or people who thought like them never got slammed.
i never trusted it or Christianity again, always suspecting a political angle to each and every thing they said.
the same has been confirmed in Judaism (to which i eventually converted) where, the more traditional and Orthodox you are, the bigger clout you have, both within the Jewish community and to the non-Jewish community, particularly the religious one. after all, Orthodox Jews with their garb are quaint in the same way that Amish are, never mind that people think monkeys in cages are cute, too, with the same thought and emotion. -
aaaaannndddd... Jesus did not look like Duane Allman!
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/25/face.jesus/
This has got to be peeve number one with illustrated Jesi. Everyone thinks he looks like Qui-Gon Jinn or something. I do trust Duane Allman to play sweet southern-rock guitar solos though. You should make an "I trust Duane Allman" billboard. That'd show'em good! -
Oh man, I often ask bible-thumpers on the subway and whatnot if they'll read one of my favorite passages; they always oblige and I point them to that very one.
#: Posted by Jon Reznick on 09/21 at 11:52 PM
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Jesus saves...
but Buddha makes incremental backups. -
Trust - but Verify! We need a poster of Gregor Mendel. This priest / monk may have trusted in Jesus, but he verified the basic genetics of evolution through scientific experimentation.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 01:31 AM
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so many people view atheism as inherently confrontational
They need to be fitted with irony meters then. Atheists don't go round knocking on people's doors and witnessing.
"Jesus saves pounds at Poundsaver" (or the more prevalent Poundstretcher)
"Jesus saves face and blames Satan"
"Jesus saves up for Christmas" (or for a bicycle/puppy?)#: Posted by on 09/22 at 01:42 AM -
Well, what do you expect from folk who create massive stone monuments engraved with (among other things) a proscription against graven images?
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 01:50 AM
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This is so unfair. How come a dude from the middle east gets heaps of billboards in America while Australia's Rainbow Serpent gets none? What's Jesus got that the Rainbow Serpent hasn't? Besides, ya know, limbs?
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 01:52 AM
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I'm a big football fan (used to play) and the thing I hate about going to Seahawk games here in Seattle (other than that they perennially suck) is the post game gather-on-the-field prayer. As a Lutheran-turned-atheist, I find that offensive from both perspectives. The ostentatious prayer is clearly in violation of Jesus' words (15 yard and loss of down), and it just plain rubs me the wrong way as someone who thinks all this god stuff is silly.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 02:09 AM
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Up near Tacoma, Washington, there's a giant sign that once said "JESUS LOVES YOU," but about five years ago mutated to "JESUS CARES ABOUT YOU." Coming soon: "JESUS JUST WANTS TO BE FRIENDS."
Followed by "JESUS THINKS YOU'RE A GREAT PERSON BUT HE HAS A LOT GOING ON IN HIS LIFE RIGHT NOW", then "NO, JESUS CAN'T COME TO THE PHONE, SORRY", and finally "WHERE DID YOU GET THIS NUMBER?"#: Posted by on 09/22 at 02:22 AM -
Jim Anderson: "Up near Tacoma, Washington, there's a giant sign that once said "JESUS LOVES YOU," but about five years ago mutated to "JESUS CARES ABOUT YOU." Coming soon: "JESUS JUST WANTS TO BE FRIENDS." "
That sign was the first thing I thought of too.
Not to spoil your joke, but it actually used to say "JESUS IS THE ANSWER", made more surreal being across the street from a large mall. I think they changed it when they got tired of all the wise-ass "But what's the question?" jokes.
It was in angry red neon letters you could see from I-5. The new one's still visible to lonely interstate motorists, only now in soothing green neon IIRC. It belongs to Trinity Church, which doesn't have a website, and oddly I can't find any photos of this famous landmark, which has to be at least 20 years old.#: Posted by on 09/22 at 02:42 AM -
Chill, folks. The roadside dinosaurs are ours.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 02:49 AM
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bad Jim: "Chill, folks. The roadside dinosaurs are ours."
What? the Creationists gave them back?#: Posted by on 09/22 at 03:02 AM -
I remember back in the 80's seeing a sign reading "Jesus is coming". Somebody had, in careful script to match the signs typeface, written underneath, "look busy!"
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 03:11 AM
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You'd think an omniscient deity wouldn't need a billboard to figure out who trusts in him. Even Santa Claus can do better than that.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 03:26 AM
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What I can't understand is why people in the US seems to be unabale to respect the simple principle of freedom from religion. Religion is much more heavyhanded in the US than in Europe, even though the European countries often have state churches.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 03:38 AM
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I misread it as 'Jesus, I thrust in you.'
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 03:44 AM
- Kristjan: Americans are just more religious than Europeans, so clearly they'll tend to publicly display their faith more than Europeans.
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Not only that, but America is religiously heterogenous AND evangelical--a bad combination for avoiding stuff like this.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 06:33 AM
- It is merely an advertisement. Religion is a business with special protection in the Constitution. ( Baseball has its protection in the Congress, and some corporations have their protection in the White House, so religion in that sense is not even exceptional.)
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I strongly suspect that because many European countries have or had state religions, the people are now less religious. Things may get far worse here before they get better.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 06:49 AM
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Ginger Yellow: You'd think an omniscient deity wouldn't need a billboard to figure out who trusts in him. Even Santa Claus can do better than that.
I love it. I'm going to use that line from now on. (And there's nothing you can do about it, muhahaha.)#: Posted by on 09/22 at 07:14 AM -
Around these parts (Ottawa, Canada), there is a significant (or at least noticeable) number of Catholics who practise a sort of "magical incantation" (generally a Novena to St Jude), in which they have to say a prayer for 9 days, and then publish their thanks when the request is granted. The Jesus on this billboard looks very Catholic, so I wonder if there was some sort of similar deal - perhaps the supplicant decided to bargain with God and offered to give thanks in a public and expensive way if their wish came true.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 07:54 AM
- I trust Jesus. He has never lied to me once. I think that has something to do with the fact that he has been dead for about 2000 years. The people who put up the billboard, well that is a different story.
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In my neck of the woods, we have a homeowner who painted in HUGE letters "JESUS LIVES" on his roof. Right next door the neighbour painted "ELVIS LIVES" on theirs...
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 08:34 AM
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New billboard:
"Trust in Jesus.
Not the stupid fucking bastards
that claim to speak for him."
"You've got to think for yourselves!" -- Brian#: Posted by on 09/22 at 08:45 AM -
My two favorite suggestions for billboards would be: Jesus Would Slap the Shit Out Of You. And: I Found Jesus. He was Behind The Sofa The Whole Time.
Let’s all consider this: Midterms are coming up. Post yourselves at the polls and ask each person entering if they are “born again.” If they say yes, ask when. When appropriate (ie: born again since 1987) tell them they have to be 18 to vote and ask them to go home.#: Posted by on 09/22 at 09:12 AM -
Hey, I'd chip in a buck for a billboard with that coupla verses from the Gospel of Matthew.
Might also point out that those are part of the run-up to the Lord's Prayer, so they're obviously meant (by same Lord) for maximum instructional impact.
That would make a nice "holy card" (I was raised Catholic; ask one if you're not familiar with the phrase.) to pass out at random too. Pastel painting of Jesus teaching the disciples on the front, gold edge.
Smile lovingly as you hand them off.#: Posted by Ron Sullivan on 09/22 at 09:13 AM -
Oh yeah, too -- I think Theo Bromine's analysis of this um apparition is right on target.
#: Posted by Ron Sullivan on 09/22 at 09:15 AM
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Feel free Patrick. The more ridicule the better.
"What I can't understand is why people in the US seems to be unabale to respect the simple principle of freedom from religion. Religion is much more heavyhanded in the US than in Europe, even though the European countries often have state churches."
Part of the difference is simply that most European countries ban billboards next to motorways so as not to distract drivers. You do get quite a few religious billboards in cities (at least in the UK), but since they're mostly Church of England they're fairly low key and, well, wussy. That said, I do think there's a direct correlation between the lack of establishmentarianism in America and the religiosity of Americans. Established religions (in modern countries) are inevitably compromised because their spritual side is subservient to the political needs of the state. The CofE can't be seen to be intolerant of gay people for example, because the state (and for that matter the royal family) is trying to promote an image of tolerance, even if it's not doing a whole lot about it by European standards.#: Posted by on 09/22 at 09:20 AM -
Looking at the pic of the billboard, I'm struck by all those "rays". And I notice some clever and nimble person could seamlessly insert a color- and font-matched strip above the word "Jesus" saying "Radioactive" ...
... and it would make at least as much sense as it does right now. -
#41178: SEF — 09/22 at 01:42 AM
Atheists don't go round knocking on people's doors and witnessing.
It seems you haven't heard of John Safran.
The Official John Safran Website
PRESS RELEASE
JOHN SAFRAN VS GOD 2004 (SBS-TV)
In his most audacious project yet, John set off across the globe to take on religion. He roadtests Buddhism in Japan and Voodooism is Haiti. He doorknocks in Utah and tries to convert Mormons to atheism...
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 09:39 AM -
What's funny is that the billboard is directed AT JESUS, not at the drivers. Do they think that "God" himself, who has power over the whole universe, is just passing by on his way to Mars or something? And he sees this billboard! Good Gracious! What luck - we got our message to him. Otherwise, he would never have known.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 09:47 AM
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Hmm ...
Your own ... radioactive ... Jesus.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 10:33 AM -
I was thinking more "Radioactive Jesus, I trust in you!"
But if we're gonna aim billboards at him, how 'bout, "Thanks, Jesus, for shopping at Wal-Mart! Come again!" -
Hehe, on the way out to a river I like to kayak down with some friends, there is this large billboard. It's all white, with giant red lettered "JESUS" on it. Every time we take a trip down the river, first person in the car to see it screams "JESUS!" as loud as practical. Scares the shit out of first timers.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 10:50 AM
- What's wrong with putting up signs with good old "Jesus loves you - everyone else thinks you're an asshole"?
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"Jesus loves you - everyone else thinks you're an asshole"?
Here in Britain we're a bit more blunt. It goes: "Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you're a c---."#: Posted by on 09/22 at 11:03 AM -
I am with modus on this.
Old christian belief: New christian belief:
1 god 3 gods
don't do images of god please do images of gods
The sad thing is that old jewism/christianism/islamism probably stemmed from a wish to go from polytheism to monotheism. Christians reneged on that and went back to polytheism. But can not even say so openly. (Sort of a 'triple-standard'.
)
It is as irritating to me as the images when I am occasionally subjected to descriptions of the mess.#: Posted by on 09/22 at 11:19 AM -
Where did the spaces in the preview table go? This website gobbled them up for some reason, probably between plain text to html conversion.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 11:25 AM
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I trust Jesus to do my thinking for me. If it's good enough for the Prez, it's good enough for me! <note the sarcasm>
I'm going back to lurking now.#: Posted by on 09/22 at 11:49 AM - I fantasize about having a "Jesus is my designated driver" bumper sticker, right next to one saying "In case of Rapture, may I have your car?"
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One thing that you will definitely not see is a Muslim sign declaring,
<quote>"Mohammed: I trust in you"</quote>
next to a big picture of Mohammed. Both the sentiment and the picture would be very sacreligious, and very contrary to Islamic culture. Actually, pictures like this are sacreligious to many Christians too—they used to kill each other over this issue—remember the iconoclasts?
Mohammed himself was quite explicit that he was merely a man, even if he was God's messenger, and that Muslims are to worship and praise God, not Mohammed.
Here's another difference I think you'll like, PZ.
Another thing that you'll not see a Muslim do is marry more than four women at once. This Qu'ranic constraint is not found in the the Bible, where the number of wives is unrestricted.#: Posted by Deuteronomy 21:15 on 09/22 at 12:11 PM -
Deut., Are you kidding? Ibn Saud, Khaliphs, Sultans and rich Arabs have women by the dozen. Marriage and divorce are not serious matters in Islam. I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you, and I am free for my next fourth wife. Mohammed said that he was a Prophet, but his followers make rounds around a black meteorite in Makka and kiss his horse's hoofprint in a rock in Jerusalem.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 12:45 PM
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Ezkept: I'm not sure what you think my mindset is, but it sure ain't Christian. Jesus himself (if you trust that what is reported in the gospels is even vaguely accurate) promotes a pretty interesting and appealing moral philosophy, which is actively practiced by very few of the people who actually label themselves "Christian". Personally, I think there probably was a Jewish guy named Yeshua who lived in Roman Palestine in the first century AD. He interpreted Jewish scripture, had some followers, and managed to totally piss off the Roman authorities. Beyond that, all bets are off.
#: Posted by Mrs. Coulter on 09/22 at 01:02 PM
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If I were to concede the actuality of Jesus' existence and that his philosophies were accurately portrayed in the Gospels, that might be a reasonable starting point for an argument. However, I concede no such thing, and think any material evidence for a physical, historical Jesus is irrelevant. The Jesus that matters is the concept portrayed by the church...and in most of the sects squatting in their cancerous way across this country, that Jesus is a monster.
I abhor the Jesus of American Christianity, I'm afraid. If the real Jesus was a great philosopher, it's even more of a tragedy what Christianity has done to him. -
Could this be a sign that we have "witnessed" the formation of a new species, Homo Headupthebuttockus? Or do we just give the Sapiens, sapiens title to those of us that have progressed beyond the "Watch Out The God(s) Are Angry", stage? Really, there HAS to be some strange hard-wiring gone on to create so many religiously wierd people... (Yes I know reliegiously wierd is a redundency.)
So, the question is: Why the hell are people so dammed stupid as to believe in god(s), Christ, Allah, etc? There has to be at least a Doctorate awarded for the correct answer! The Nobel of course for the CURE for the religious pathology. IMO, "Heaven on earth", would be NO religions. Me and John Lennon imagine it I guess, but you all are welcome too.
Thank you for the Rant Space!#: Posted by on 09/22 at 01:18 PM - The version of that billboard that might offend the most people in the US (that I think could use some offending)? If the guy pictured actually looked like somebody from the Eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, a couple milennia ago.
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Actually, I was a bit disappointed when the billboard near my town reading "I don't question your existence. - God" was replaced. I had a plan to pull a ninja raid with black paint and strategically remove some letters so it read: "I don't ________ ______ exist_____ - God." Sadly, I decided not to pull that little bit of vandalism until I had the money to afford a lawyer on the odd chance I got caught, and now the sign's been replaced.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 01:42 PM
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Kristjan: Americans are just more religious than Europeans, so clearly they'll tend to publicly display their faith more than Europeans.
Alon, I think you'd find that certain groups of Europeans are as religious as Americans, yet they don't dispaly it as openly, and certainly don't force their religion on everyone else.
Ireland is considered very religious, even by people from traditionally Catholic countries (I've spoken with people from Poland, Spain and Lithuania about it when I visited Dublin a couple of months ago), and while people were much more public about their faith than I'm used to, they were nothing like what I've seen in the US.#: Posted by on 09/22 at 01:47 PM -
Ezkept: I'm not sure what you think my mindset is, but it sure ain't Christian.
Mrs Coulter, i'm puzzled. which post of yours did you think i was reacting to? and what post of mine was it?So, the question is: Why the hell are people so dammed stupid as to believe in god(s), Christ, Allah, etc?
this is just a guess, but i suspect we create these or animism or polytheism for the same reason our built-in senses of statistics and the random are miserable. we are so motivated to find patterns in noise, because that's a powerful tool of survival, we find them even when the evidence is statistically skimpy. i mean it's not just religion: people avoid flying right after there's been a major crash and people even drive long distances to avoid flying.
and people elect leaders of states who appeal to their sense of security even if there's no evidence their programs or promises of programs did work.
this happens some times in science, too. (it does not at present happen in evolutionary biology or climate science, BTW.) geologists were so wedded to uniformitarianism that they initially rejected the interpretation of plate tectonics, even when evidence from the deep ocean floor became overwhelming in its favor. and they resisted Shoemaker's hypothesis that impacts were an important geologic process and the shortage of astroblemes was only apparent, not actual. -
Deut., Are you kidding? Ibn Saud, Khaliphs, Sultans and rich Arabs have women by the dozen. Marriage and divorce are not serious matters in Islam. I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you, and I am free for my next fourth wife.
You're missing the point. The next time you hear some sanctimonious asshole go on about the superiority of Christianity or those depraved Muslims and the polygamy, you can say "you mean to say that we should have an unrestricted number of wives like the Bible allows!"
As for Islamic marriage and divorce, it's nonsense that they're not serious matters, although the ruling class stretches the rules as is done universally. But they don't flaunt them outright—Harems don't count, and that's also why I was careful to say "you'll not see a Muslim ... marry more than four women at once".
And if you really want a good laugh, check out the marital advantages of converting to Shi'ism (not Sunnism). Hint: Google "Shi'ite temporary marriage" (or Nikah Mut'ah). (And please don't come back and say "See, marriage isn't serious in Islam!"—my Shi'ite friends all laugh about this too.)#: Posted by Deuteronomy 21:15 on 09/22 at 02:07 PM -
Ekzept: I was responding to comment #41149, but I think actually you and I ultimately agree. I'm not absolving Christians of the violence they do to the apparent philosophy presented in the Gospels.
PZM: Actually, I don't concede that "Jesus" is accurately portrayed in the Gospels (which, as I'm you know, were written down well after his death), but I also think that the contrast between the Jesus of the Gospels and the behavior of his modern followers is often quite stark. If his modern followers actively followed his teachings as portrayed there, I think they would be less objectionable (although still daffy on the whole deity thing). I do think that Jesus probably was a real person, in the same way that Muhammed and Siddartha Gautama were probably really people (but not Confucious). I suppose if you had written that "American Jesus" is a chancre on humanity, it wouldn't have occurred to me to raise any qualification to that point.#: Posted by Mrs. Coulter on 09/22 at 03:24 PM - "Organized Christianity has probably done more to retard the ideas that were its founder's than any other agency in the world." - Richard Le Gallienne
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You quoted one of my favorite biblical passages. It was one my mother (an Episcopalian)used to read to me when I was little because she detested religious grandstanding. I'm a Catholic and was pleased to hear an elderly priest at my church comment on a "Trust Jesus" sign painted on a sidewalk in our town: "Now who would deface a perfectly good pavement in this way?"
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 04:28 PM
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Bear in mind, the CofE was founded because Henry wanted a divorce and the Pope said no. Religeous seriousness is almost always found in the followers rather than the leaders of any religeon.
Canadian Version: "Jesus Saves! Gretzky gets the puck, he shoots! HE SCORES!"
Personally, we always got the giggles at the special interest section at Blockbuster. The tapes titled "Why?" and "JESUS" sat right next to each other, prompting minutes of wailing loudly "WHY, JESUS, WHY??"#: Posted by Left_Wing_Fox on 09/22 at 06:37 PM -
Just John, There is a great bumper sticker that reads: God is My Copilot. But we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 06:39 PM
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I would contribute $ to put up a billboard that says "Science - I trust in you" or similar. Maybe with a big evolve-fish on it. Any fund drives going on for such a thing?
#: Posted by on 09/22 at 07:13 PM
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I don't trust in you, Jesus; I think you're a chancre on humanity.
Gee PZ, why don't you tell us how you really feel.
Jesus as a "Cancre on humanity"? That's pretty funny... A God that offers people hope, redemption and salvation is a "cancre"? And in your world, I suppose Dr. Kevorkian is a "saint".
Didn't you guys get the memo? The Democrats are "down" with Jesus now, they even have a "progressive christians" organization (heh). Evolve PZ, Evolve!
You must have missed the "Tolerance and Celebration of Diversity" part of Liberalism 101. Remember, it was held Tues. and Thurs., right before "Introduction to Anti-Sematism" and right after "Take other people's money". - Jester, I regret to inform you that your post sounds like a parody of a Freeper. The part about hope doesn't - it's merely completely wrong (when reality and hope clash, only sheep go with hope). But the part about tolerance and liberalism sounds as if you insist on using Rush Limbaugh's conflation of liberalism with postmodernist radicalism. Even socialists sometimes oppose postmodern stupidity - Alan Sokal has more socialist credentials than most postmodernists. The more intellectual liberals are very much against the everything-goes view you're attacking.
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Tee hee. Jester can't spell right even when he's copying from quoted material. Or maybe he thinks PZ's use of "chancre" is a misspelling of "cancer", which Jester corrected with a new misspelling of his own. Yes, it's petty to criticize people's spelling, but sometimes I can't help myself.
Perhaps Alon Levy is hinting at the truth and I just fell for a Freeper parody. It reeks very persuasively of Freeper stink. -
In the past Jester said similar things and sounded genuine, Tony.
Bill, I don't think "Science - I trust in you" is a good idea. Although some anti-scientists don't like the conclusions of scientific research, such as common descent, a very big part of anti-scientism is dislike of scientific hierarchy. In the 1950s Americans trusted science without doubt even though it wasn't any less in favor of common descent than it is now. Hence, it is crucial to show that science is quite an individualist endeavor and is closer to the free market than to a centralized bureaucracy. "Science - I trust in you" plays to the idea that scientists are a bunch of cultlike aristocrats. -
Upthread someone joked about a coming billboard 'jesus likes you'; in Australia I saw the funniest sign ever outside a church:
POST-OLYMPIC BLUES? SMILE - GOD IS NICE AND HE LIKES YOU
So pleasingly low-key...#: Posted by on 09/23 at 02:33 AM -
I would contribute $ to put up a billboard that says "Science - I trust in you" or similar. Maybe with a big evolve-fish on it. Any fund drives going on for such a thing?
I'm with Alon, I don't think the "I trust in you" part is particularly good. Maybe something like "I understand you", or "I respect you", or even perhaps "You make a difference"?#: Posted by on 09/23 at 02:54 AM -
"Science Saves" would do it - alongside suitable (before and after) pictures of medical treatments, sea or mountain helicopter rescues or any other modern science-derived technology of course to smack home the point.
#: Posted by on 09/23 at 03:25 AM
- I'd rather an ode to science be as factual as possible, as in SEF's ideas. But still, what's needed to increase public support of science is not a "Science is great - and you aren't" campaign that depicts technology rather than basic science, but explanations about how science is simply a rigorous version of common sense. The best caption that fits helicopter rescues and medical treatments is not "science saves" but "scientific technology saves." The shortest way I can think of relating evolution to technological progress is depicting a picture of a scientist examining a container with a biohazard sign on it, with the caption, "Evolutionary theory tells him how this virus will develop in the future."