PZ Myers. 2005 Nov 10. Thugs for God. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/thugs_for_god/>. Accessed 2008 Nov 20.
Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Thursday, November 10, 2005
Thugs for God
Hey, gang, this quote from Pat Robertson is not a joke.
On today’s 700 Club, Rev. Pat Robertson took the opportunity to strongly rebuke voters in Dover, PA who removed from office school board members who supported teaching faith-based “intelligent design” and instead elected Democrats who opposed bringing up the possibility of a Creator in the school system’s science curriculum.
Rev. Robertson warned the people of Dover that God might forsake the town because of the vote.
“I’d like to say to the good citizens of Dover. If there is a disaster in your area, don’t turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city. And don’t wonder why He hasn’t helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I’m not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that’s the case, don’t ask for His help because he might not be there.”
I like it. The message is clear, it's not hard to figure it out…Christianity is like an extortion racket, see, and if you don't cough up, well, Lew here might have a little accident with your car, or your house, or your little girl. And then Mr Big wouldn't be able to do nothin' for you. He doesn't mean nothing by it, he likes you, see, but if you don't show him a little respect, you can't expect him to trouble himself with your worries, OK? Me and Vinnie'll be by tomorrow, and you will have that little donation ready.
-
This is particularly funny given how he blames disasters in one place on 'misbehavin' in another.
How long before he starts talking assassination of the new school board, hmmmm?
hugs,
Shirley Knott#: Posted by on 11/10 at 03:24 PM -
Guess I'm not crazy after all: Someone else points out the similarity between God and a mob boss, running protection rackets and putting hits out on people.
#: Posted by on 11/10 at 03:27 PM
-
I wonder if there's any anthropological evidence supporting the theory that the early Church, being in Rome, had a major Cicilian influence that left an indelible mark on the Christian hierarchy; something that would last long enough to endure 1700 odd years of Metaphysical drift, religious war, liberalization and sectarian schism?
They do call him God(the)father an awful lot. -
Pat Robertson is Travis Bickle!
+++ -
Nice little town you have here - would be a shame if somethign were to happen to it.
Accidents happen, you know.
If I lived in Dover, I'd have someone from another town start my car in the morning, just to be safe.
Remember - it's not personal, just business.#: Posted by Jim Kakalios on 11/10 at 03:31 PM -
Pat Robertson? This guy?
"The Supreme Court has insulted you over and over again, Lord. They've taken your Bible away from the schools. They've forbidden little children to pray. They've taken the knowledge of God as best they can, and organizations have come into court to take the knowledge of God out of the public square of America."
From http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/
... but he was talking about 9/11 then. Same thug mentality, though.#: Posted by Rick @ shrimp and grits on 11/10 at 03:36 PM -
A bully and an idiot. Not so unlike our president.
And Tyrant Robertson has lots of foot soldiers. They are the same devils who tried to mandate parental consent for abortions in California (and lost) and who tried to deny gay people the right of marriage in Texas (and won).
Creationism is just one of their wars. I think the only way to stop them here is to put out all their other wars as well: the immoral war (Iraq), the pointless war (drugs), the racist war (the death penalty), the war against choice (sexual and reproductive freedoms).#: Posted by on 11/10 at 03:45 PM -
Keep up the good work, Pat, you're the best recruiting tool atheism ever had.
#: Posted by on 11/10 at 03:58 PM
-
Instead of the Mafia parallel, try terrorism: violence (or threats thereof) aimed at the population in order to advance your ideological goals. The only reason Ayatollah Pat doesn't get arrested is that no one in authority really believes that God is that much like Osama bin Laden.
#: Posted by on 11/10 at 04:13 PM
-
And don’t wonder why He hasn’t helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I’m not saying they will ...
Has Robertson been taking night classes? Because it looks like he's a fully qualified Intelligent Design scholar already.
-The Reverend Schmitt.#: Posted by on 11/10 at 04:18 PM -
Well, Robertson's been threatening us with natural disasters for a long time now. I always thought it was a remarkable coincidence that all the heathens that God wants to punish with hurricanes are conveniently located in the Atlantic Gulf Coast region.
I really would have thought he would have put a stop to this line of threat that one time he said a mighty hurricane was going to sweep away Orlando because of Disney's pro-gay employment practices or something like that, and then it turned around and made landfall by his Virginia Beach headquarters.#: Posted by on 11/10 at 04:18 PM - Technically, Chilly, Pat Robertson's CBN campus is in Chesapeake. as someone who used to live down the road form him, on the other side of the city line in VA Beach, we like to make these things clear.
-
There's a Monet Water Lilies painting at the L.A. County Art Museum--which ought to be in the near vicinity of the La Brea tar pits--that is amazingly vivid.
100 years later, you'd swear the paint is still wet. Worth the price of admission all by itself.#: Posted by on 11/10 at 04:30 PM -
Sadly, this moron will start crowing if one of the newly-elected board members so much as gets into a minor car accident.
#: Posted by on 11/10 at 04:35 PM
-
Dang. That one was supposed to go under "California Dreaming." Ah well, (much as I hate to use Flood imagery)I'm sure PZ has been inundated with cool things to do.
#: Posted by on 11/10 at 04:36 PM
-
Pretty common in the Old Testament for God to pull that kind of stuff.
#: Posted by on 11/10 at 04:49 PM
-
this kind of attitude afflicts the god-is-a-puppet crowd all over the world, from radical Islamic pronouncements that hurricanes are punishment, to haredi in Israel who blame schools burning down on their mezzuzot not being up to code.
god-is-a-puppet? yeah, i can make god jump and trash Dover by evicting ID from its school board. in fact, the more Free Will is given to people according to these polytheists (yeah, they are, they believe in "the Devil"), the less free their Deity appears to be. -
It just occured to me that I agree with the vast majority of what Robertson said, with one small caveat.
Pat Robertson probably does enjoy saying things like this. The people of Dover should not turn to God in the event of a national disaster. The people of Dover should not wonder why God does not intervene in the event of a natural disaster. Pat Robertson is completely unable to tell if God's wrath will be enacted upon the city. Religion is a terrible substitute for the predictive power of science. The people of Dover should not ask for His help in the event of a natural disaster. He, indeed, might not be there.
The quibble is, as we all know, that voting Intelligent Design out of science classes is not 'vot[ing] God out of' any city, but certainly is demarcating the line between scientific and religious explanations, and keeping a good wedge between church and state. Robertson was close, and surprisingly savvy, about that one.
-The Reverend Schmitt.#: Posted by on 11/10 at 05:09 PM -
Every salvation religion is ultimately an extortion scam. Pay up, or get punished. Since the ultimate punishments and rewards are hidden away in an afterlife, it's the perfect crime against anyone who already believes in an afterlife.
#: Posted by on 11/10 at 05:13 PM
-
Hey, Pat, bring it on! What is my state, chopped liver?
We kicked out Cherie Pierson Yucky and drove her to Florida, isn't that liberal 'nuff fer ya?#: Posted by Kristine Harley on 11/10 at 05:20 PM -
It's WAY better than that, PZ. According to this, we can, by a simple majority, vote god out of our towns too. I assume this means that all the churches and synagogues and mosques and whatever close, all the preists and preachers and rabbis and immams and assorted bead-jigglers leave town, and we never have to listen to their absurd ramblings about invisible superheros who live in outer space and mythological beasts and talking snakes and flying pigs and whatever again. I want that on our next ballot, please!!
mikey -
So I guess the one bright spot for us here in Kansas is that we are safe from natural disasters until we throw our Board of Education out.
Paul#: Posted by Pau Decelles on 11/10 at 06:23 PM -
C'mon. Does anyone take this as a credible threat? The Mob uses weapons based on naturalistic theories.
It seems, media celebrities have discovered that the more nonsense they spout, the more listeners they get. They laugh too, on the way to the bank. Don't feed them.#: Posted by on 11/10 at 06:33 PM -
Prophets are a human type much older than Christianity or even Judaism. Egyptian prophets were predicting disaster long before Moses--the Jews probably learned the prophesy business from them--but the role of prophet has emerged independently many times and in many places by the cultural equivalent of convergent evolution. Hey, prophesy works, if not as a reliable way of fortelling the future, at least as an occupational category. So let's cut Robertson a break. A guy's gotta make a living.
#: Posted by Jim Harrison on 11/10 at 07:10 PM
-
From Wikipedia
During the presidential primary election season started in early 1988, Robertson's campaign was undermined by a statement Robertson had made about his military service. In his campaign literature, he stated he was a combat Marine who served in the Korean War. When word of this got out, other Marines in his battalion contradicted Robertson's version, saying he had never spent a day in a combat environment. Instead of fighting in the war, Robertson's primary responsibility was supplying alcoholic beverages for his officers.
Republican Congressman Pete McCloskey was one of those other Marines. I had a chance to thank him personally for scuttling Robertson's candidacy. He replied, "It was a pleasure."#: Posted by on 11/10 at 07:57 PM -
LOL, my submit word is dominant. I'm telling you, it's proof of *something*!
#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 11/10 at 08:58 PM -
Speaking of Pat Robertson and the American Taliban, one of most ironic - and enjoyable - side stories of the CIA Leak/PlameGate investigation has been the discovery of Lewis "Scooter" Libby's trashy 2001 novel, "The Apprentice."
As it turns out, poorly crafted, soft-core pornography seems to be quite the cottage industry among America's conservative chattering classes.
For the full story, see:
"Hard Liners, Soft Porn: The Perverse Prose and Titillating Text of Team Bush"#: Posted by AvengingAngel on 11/10 at 09:49 PM -
Jim, I'd be more charitable to Robertson if his 'prophecies' were anything but crude, prideful and blatantly self-serving. I can still be charmed by a clever, insightful, modest, reflective approach to religion (though it never tempts me to join up). Some good moral impulses can be served if it's done right. I'd rather they weren't served that way, but it beats using religion to threaten and bully and puff yourself up, which is all that's left in Robertson et al.
#: Posted by Bryson Brown on 11/10 at 10:21 PM
-
Poor Pat. The citizens don't like Scibonics.
I kinda hope some big storm hits Dover soon. Dover, Delaware.
How funny would that be?#: Posted by on 11/10 at 10:32 PM - Pat has been walking the tightrope of insanity for many years and is just about ready to fall off. If a ficticious entity designed Pat, I don't think that entity was very intelligent to create such an unbelievable moron and one that claims to be as holy as his ficticious creator to boot. Sad, sad old man.
-
Pretty common in the Old Testament for God to pull that kind of stuff.
---Dave
Actually you have it backwards... It was pretty common for the Oligarchs to credit the "Creator" retroactively with the stuff... Or to vaguely 'predict' catastrophe and crow when it happens, as catastrophes ALWAYS do, eventually (surely, some wierd thing will happen in or near Dover in the next decade).
So let's cut Robertson a break. A guy's gotta make a living.
--Harrison
NOT! Let him make an HONEST living, like carpentry or accountancy. Allowing him (and his ilk) to prosper by extorting money from the innocent/ignorant is ...well... sinful.#: Posted by on 11/10 at 11:46 PM -
Pat Robertson has long been an exponent of the "God is a bully, you'd better do what I tell you he says" school of theology.
Ever since a bunch of his followers got fed up with him in the 9/11 aftermath, he's been increasingly desperate for attention.
-jcr#: Posted by on 11/11 at 12:26 AM -
Pat Robertson's god(small g on purpose not accidental) sounds like a spoiled petulant child. Much like Mr. Robertson himself (once again Mr. not Rev. on purpose - lets not offend those that work hard and seriously at their religion). If you dared vote against what he says his god wants well then his god will ignore you in need or even take active revenge against you. Funny my bible says God is very diferent - loving, careing, forgiving and tolerant - that is probably why this Robertson is still around. If God was anything like the petty, vengeful god that he believes in Mr. Robertson would have been blasted by lightning years ago for denigrating God's name.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 09:22 AM
-
You know, sometime I should see if Pat Robertson's Heaven has a mailing address. I'd like to send his god a little gift from http://www.zestuff.com. It's a blue t-shirt that reads, "I solve my problems through violence."
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 10:12 AM
-
Of the 2 Robertson stories on Pharyngula in the past week, one was phoney and one sounded authentic.
The difference between the two is obvious to me, as obvious as the difference between a dog and a cat. But not, apparently, to many other Robertson haters.
I still think that it pays to understand your foes.
True story about Robertson, from his early, impoverished days.
The husband of one of his true believers, a Christian but not a fanatic, volunteered to do the news broadcasts on Pat's TV station. One day he came in and said, 'Brother Robertson, I can't go on today, I have a terrible migraine.'
Robertson took him into his office, turned off the lights, asked the volunteer to kneel and they prayed. Robertson got up, turned on the lights and said, 'Now, your headache's better now, isn't it.'
'No. I quit.'#: Posted by on 11/11 at 11:55 AM -
Why are you reacting? God doesn't "exist " in your world anyway. I think your clueless.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 12:00 PM
- If god weren't so damn omniscient and omnipresent, we could probably relocate Dover citizens to some witness protection site until the divine heat subsided. Jesus Christ, god can be a real son-of-a-bitch.
-
"Why are you reacting? God doesn't "exist " in your world anyway. I think your clueless." - Dr Thom
1) Pat is a whoremongering attention lover.
2) Pat isn't God dumbass.
3) Pot, kettle, black. - Why are you reacting? "God"doesn't "exist"in your world.
-
I think Pat Robertson meant to say that we should all be kissing Hank's Ass.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 12:43 PM
-
why are you reacting? "God" doesn't "exist"in your world.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 12:49 PM
-
We are reacting because a lot of clueless idiots do think God exists, and which Pat Robertson is one of the looniest, you also have crazy nuts like the ones that are trying to get people to boycott WalMart, on the basis that 7000+ items for Christmas should get a special search index 'just for them', but that given Hanukkah and Kwanzaa special searches instead (277 items total) is persecution of Christians:
http://www.pandagon.net/archives/2005/11/tis_the_season.html
We are reacting because these idiots have the majority of otherwise sane an rational people in the US convinced that because a few of us are actively fighting back against a, "We Christians should have special treatment, just because well... we are Christians", war that started even before this country was ever founded, religion (by which they specifically mean fundimentalist and evangelical Christianity) is somehow *under* attack. Note, the majority of people are convinced religion itself is under attack, because asses like Pat are not honest about 'which' religion or even 'which' branch of Christianity is 'supposedly' being attacked. We are reacting because the mission of these people is nothing less than the create a state religion, by carefully crafting piles of laws that impose 'their' fundimentalist ideals on everyone else, then 'claim' that such a state religion doesn't exist, because no specific religion is ever mentioned in the laws. Like that make a @#$#@$ difference if the law is based on the facism lunacy of fundimentalist, evangelical, moral relativistic fools, that are never the less oddly selectively exclusionary of which bits of Biblical literalism they ascribe to.
They are dishonest, lying, morally bankrupt thieves with theocratic, totalitarian ambitions, and we would have to be either complete idiots or equally morally bankrupt to *not* react to these people's ambitions to undermine reason and logic, then replace them with completely self interested, quote mined (yep, they even do that with their Bible), religious bullshit. Imaginary things *can* hurt you, if enough idiots think its real enough to do something about it and enough other people can be duped by ignorance and emotion to support the lunitics view over reason.
Pat was among the first moron to say that Christians where under attack. All his followers went, "Gosh! It must be true." And now year later something like 70% of the US thinks, "Religion is being attacked." Its bullshit, but all it took was for Pat and others to say it might be the case, then point out all the 'supposed' attacks. The fact that if you where to chart it you would probably find 50 times as many attacks against secularism 'before' the backlash against religion, is as irrelevent to these people as WalMart actually giving Christmas shoppers 7000+ items specific to Christmas. Christians are not being given ****all**** of the attention, so ***they*** are the ones, according to these nuts, that are being persecuted. Same here. Creationism isn't being given *all* of the attention in Dover, so according to Pat, Dover is going to hell for not being Christian enough.
Christianity is what they define it as, according to them, and anything that doesn't acknowledge it is heathen, Satanic, athiest, evil and should be purged from the surface of the earth. And Pat, being one of the looniest, has floods, earthquakes, tornados, tsunami, hurricanes and HIV on the list of things that *wouldn't* happen, if everyone just because a Christian.
Sorry, but I am not going to lay down and 'let' them brand me on the ass with a cross. That is why we are reacting Dr. Thom.
Sorry about the rant everyone else... -
I'm not reacting because of any of the big issues that Kagehi raises, though he's right all down the line.
I'm reacting because Pat Robertson is a lying, thieving crook whose 700 Club used terrorism to coerce a mentally ill friend of mine to give Robertson all her money. She's destitute.
If there is a god, Robertson burns in hell. And Dr. Thom, too, I reckon.
There are occasions when I wish there was a god and that he was just.#: Posted by on 11/11 at 01:38 PM -
That was a GREAT RANT dude! A veritable word picture of a sleazy guy and a sleazy concept. Can you go off on Dembski by next Friday? Something to keep me going until Dover is picked up by a tornado and miraculously lands in KC.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 01:51 PM
-
Dr Thom, I personally think that a god or gods do not exist--certainly not the one Robertson imagines--but I fail to see why that should make me unconcerned about the hateful ranting of someone like him, who influences millions of similarly addled idiots, with results such as my children potentially being taught yours and Pat's pathetic superstitions as though they were scientific, or being made to feel inferior because they aren't as deluded as you and Pat.
It's an interesting dichotomy the religious nuts want to set up--anyone even responding to their blathering assertions is anti-religious, while we're not supposed to assert anything about what we believe because according to them we believe "nothing."#: Posted by on 11/11 at 02:04 PM -
Incredible. All of this hate-filled ranting and raving by "educated" people about a "God" and his "deluded "followers when this "God" is "nonexistant" in your estimation anyway. I find it astounding. Really makes you wonder about who is scientific and who is grasping at straws. I would think a more Academic and Scholarly approach is in order. This blog is anti-hate but, I am seeing a lot of hate/extreme dislike/and Nazi-style name calling for those of "other opinions".
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 02:44 PM
-
Harry, You "reckon" wrong.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 02:57 PM
-
ben, you assume that I am teaching pathetic superstition . How can that be possible in the world of moral relativism and situation ethics. How can you make the judgement that what you teach is of more value or validity than what I teach? Isn't everything relative ?
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 03:10 PM
-
Not worried about god, dr. thom. Robertson exists, though, and he destroys people.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 03:16 PM
-
I find it astounding.
Why are you surprised that intelligent and rational people are angered by liars and hate mongerers?
Nazi-style name calling
Having actually studied Nazi propaganda I'm going to have to point out that a.) no it isn't and b.) the fact that the Nazis have done something doesn't automatically mean it is bad. They were also pro big (though specific,) business, anti smoking and patriotic.
How can you make the judgement that what you teach is of more value or validity than what I teach?
Science is nondogmatic, is not founded on assumptions, is self corrective, inspires further research and understanding and is useful. That is how.
-Schmitt.#: Posted by on 11/11 at 03:21 PM -
Harry, I am unclear on how Robertson destroys people other than the example you cite, which is despicable provided he knew the circumstances. I am aware however of his many "good works" to help the poor and disenfrachised through Operation Blessing. I have witnessed this firsthand,having spent a good number of my career years to date in Social Work ,Education and Advocacy . To be fair , I must also state that these monies were given without strings attached to a large number of Community based Grassroots Organizations including a large number of organizations dealing with Migrant Farmworkers, Homeless and Drug Issues. And No , I was not a member of his Organization or even a big supporter of Robertson.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 03:55 PM
-
Rev.Schmitt, Making a judgement call is not dogmatic?
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 04:01 PM
-
Rev.Schmitt, You state that just because the Nazi's have done something doesn't automatically mean it's bad. I agree so, therefore if right wing Christian fundamentalists do such things does it mean that they are more wrong or evil than Jews , Muslims, other religions , Marilyn Manson or liberal exponants of evolution that engage in such intolerance?
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 04:10 PM
-
Rev. Schmitt, One other question . How do you determine who is rational and intelligent? What is your measuring stick/criteria? Is it based upon whether a person agrees or disagrees with your worldview? I am certain that you realize that there are other worldviews that will disagree with yours (Native American,Aboriginal,African,to name a few).Does this mean that these nations are not rational or intelligent because they acknowledge a creator?
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 04:22 PM
-
I am unclear on how Robertson destroys people
He used Operation Blessing's charitable Rwanda drive as a front to fund his diamond mining business in Zaire. He constantly lies about science for his own political and monetary gain. He constantly lies about politics and foreign governments to further his own political and monetary aims (eg, compare his views on Charles Taylor and Hugo Chavez, what they have actually done, and what he stood to gain from American lenience or pressure, respectively.) He has called for murder and genocide. He has harassed feminists and homosexuals, and agreed with Jerry Falwell that they were the cause of the September 11 attacks. He blames natural disasters on the values, sexual orientation and opinions of human beings. He is a hate mongerer, as I said.
Making a judgement call is not dogmatic?
No.
And yes Dr Thom, I think that anyone gleefully pronouncing the possible deaths of their countrymen for no reason other than the fact that they are not treating his religion as scientifically established fact is a disgusting excuse for a person. As Dr Myers said, he treats religion as an extortion racket (quite literally in the case of Operation Blessing.)
-Schmitt.#: Posted by on 11/11 at 04:37 PM -
dr.thom
"Why are you reacting? "God"doesn't "exist"in your world."
Why do you keep trolling the comments?#: Posted by Oderus Ungerus on 11/11 at 04:50 PM -
Rev. Schmitt, Was kann ich sagen? If accusations are made then, there must be proof. I am unaware of the diamond mining operation but, I do believe that religion must not be comingled with American-style or any other Capitalism. It is also important to not make assertions without proof.However, I do not view the actions of one or even many individuals as proof that Jesus and his teachings were meaningless or without value. Nor do I view the actions of any person as proof positive that "christianity" is fraudulent and if we really want to discuss genocide and murder, wasn't that how North America was "subdued"?It was through the genocide of it's indigenous peoples? Everyone living in N.A., who isn't indigenous ,has benefited from that genocidal activity. The survivors still live in internment camps that are known as Reservations. Pat didn't think up that one.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 04:58 PM
-
Hey "Dr." Thom,
It is you Neo-Christian Dominionists who are the moral relativists. You support Pat Robertson and his violating the commandments against murder and lying, and his support of the vicious criminal dictator Charles Taylor.
Go to Hell, "Dr." Thom. A warm spot has been reserved for you. You make me want to puke...all over you.#: Posted by on 11/11 at 04:58 PM -
tom3, I have no idea what you are talking about but, you are a very disrespectful and hate filled person.You make vile judgements and are a reactionary. You react with violence when I am only discussing.I have an earned Doctorate, you sound as if you have a Thug Education.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 05:08 PM
-
Dr Thom,
Pat Robertson's little Zaire operation is a hilarious part of public record.
However, I do not view the actions of one or even many individuals as proof that Jesus and his teachings were meaningless or without value.
Straw man, no one said any different.
...if we really want to discuss genocide and murder, wasn't that how North America was "subdued"?It was through the genocide of it's indigenous peoples?
The biggest in history, yes. But this is some weird kind of tu quoque which assumes I agree with the genocide commited by your ancestors.
And I raise your doctorate with my ordination at the Universal Life Church.
-Schmitt.#: Posted by on 11/11 at 05:14 PM -
ah, don't you guys know that he was just citing the Bible?
http://tinyurl.com/7rqcy#: Posted by Sir Oolius on 11/11 at 05:17 PM -
What Schmitt says is well known. If you don't know it, and appear not to be curious, then you can take your earned doctorate and wrap fish in it. It cannot be worth anything.
How many helpless, mentally ill women does Robertson have to destroy before he qualifies as evil?
In my book, one. But there are others. And I'm only talking at the purely personal level, not about the big-time crimes that Kagehi and Schmitt are concerned about.
Professor Myers is on record, many times, as distinguishing among decent people who are also Christians and the fanatics, although sometimes in his rants he sounds as if he doesn't.
I am a lot less lenient. If everybody but Dr. Thom knows about Robertson's disgusting behavior and if they don't denounce it and him, then they're going the same place he's going (should there be a hereafter).
I haven't heard any of the so-called decent Christians denouncing and exposing him. Only us atheists do that.
You should choose your causes more carefully.#: Posted by on 11/11 at 05:23 PM -
Actually the murder was not committed by my ancestors, Herr Pastor. I am an enrolled member of a Treaty Native Nation. I have an earned Doctorate but, perhaps you are not interested in open discussion. If you live in America you are a direct beneficiary of the North American Holocaust so, you may indict and curse "right wing evangelicals" and all those who do not agree with your agenda. But, the point is that your hands are not "clean"either. You are also the direct beneficiary of that which you decry i.e. genocide,injustice, and bigotry. Be honest and do your homework before you are quick to judge, you are not innocent either.Thank you for the mainly respectful and interesting discussion.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 05:30 PM
-
Harry, I probably didn't hear about it because I have been living in Northern Canada for a long time on a Native Reserve we have other issues to concern ourselves with. I watch very little American TV anymore although I am a Army Veteran. I just happened upon this blog and decided to participate because it appeared Academic and interesting. I didn't realize that it was populated by "christian bashers". I am looking for open discussion. I didn't realize that there was so much hatred in America for "christians" or is it just Pat Robertson? I don't think so because I am also seeing hatred directed towards me because it is assumed I am a Robertson supporter.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 05:40 PM
-
If you live in America
I'm British and live in England, but even if I was American I fail to see what the extermination of Native Americans would have to do with the cleanliness of my hands, regardless of what benefits it eventually gave me. I have done nothing to support, endorse, engineer or practise murder. Most people - Americans certainly included - can say the same. Pat Robertson is not one of them.
Pointing out that Pat Robertson is a bad person says nothing about my views about Evangelicals or Christians in general.
And incidentally Dr Thom, if you expect people to be civil your opening shot should probably be something a little less provocative than calling everyone clueless. And yes, people who know about Roberton's crimes - ethical and lawful - will tend to get upset when you support him, regardless of your personal religion.
Take care.
-Schmitt.#: Posted by on 11/11 at 05:57 PM -
The idea that the children are guilty for the sins of their fathers is just another loonie christian, mobster-god idea. Adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge (which of course, due to omniscience, is God's fault anyway), but instead of only punishing Adam and eve and starting over with another two, God just decides to be a total asshole, curses the world, throws them out of the garden and curses all their children.
Yup, a real mr. niceguy this christian god.
I hope Satan kills him.#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 11/11 at 07:14 PM -
So, Dr. Thom, now you admit you don't know what you're talking about. That makes it unanimous. We had all already figured that out.
I don't know how I 'benefit' today because my grandfather owned slaves. I don't own any.
By the way, you have gotten some pretty broad hints that it would enhance your credibility if you would, like a decent human, denounce Robertson's numerous transgressions. Time to separate the sheep from the goats. Which are you?#: Posted by on 11/11 at 07:23 PM -
Harry, I took exception to the broadside that stated that christianity is like an extortion racket. I have difficulty with stereotypical all inclusive statements. It is unfair to single out christianity for attacks but, shy away from attacking "politically correct sacred cows". I really did not seek to defend Pat Robertson , I did not like the comparison of christianity to extortion rackets. I am a world religions Prof. and I don't take that approach to any religion. I appreciate your viewpoint , please appreciate mine.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 07:39 PM
-
Also Harry, you stated that you don't know how you benefit.The land that you live upon was taken from the Indian people by the Colonial Powers or the US Govt.by way of Treaties that were signed under duress , ethnic cleansing and/or genocide.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 07:50 PM
-
Dt Thom:
You claim to be a world religions prof but you appear to be completely ignorant of the loathsome Pat Robertson and you also appear to be unwilling or unable to do a Gooogle search about him. I call shenanagins!
I also have a doctorate (in medicine) but at least I can find out the truth about this cockroach. It would behoove you to do the same.
BTW, Pat Robertson has NOTHING to do with belief in God or the divinity of Jesus Christ.#: Posted by on 11/11 at 08:18 PM - Oh, leave Pat alone. He's been feeling a bit down since his prayer-offensive against Justices Stevens and Ginsburg accidentally winged Rehnquist in the thyroid and lodged in a rear wall. He just needs a cuddle.
-
Dr. Bruce, I am not unaware of Pat Robertson. I stated that I did not know about his Mining Activities in Africa. I know his Theology.
#: Posted by on 11/11 at 11:28 PM
-
Dr Thom, you claim:
I just happened upon this blog and decided to participate because it appeared Academic and interesting. I didn't realize that it was populated by "christian bashers". I am looking for open discussion.
Your opening post:Why are you reacting? God doesn't "exist " in your world anyway. I think your clueless.
Hypocrite.
I guess in your world 'open discussions' begin with you calling other people 'clueless,' followed by you acting aggrieved when people respond angrily. OK.
Also, where is it that they give out doctorates to people who cannot spell and punctuate properly? Let me guess, some sort of religious school?#: Posted by on 11/12 at 10:07 AM -
If I benefit from the genocide of the native Americans (which I guess I do in some respects, much as I benefit from the extinction of the dinosaurs), tell us how you benefit from the genocide in Southeast Asia in which you participated for four years.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 10:12 AM
-
Actually the murder was not committed by my ancestors....I am an enrolled member of a Treaty Native Nation.
So Thom, your 'MacDonald' last name just got attached to you by accident and reflects no actual connection to the European invaders who murdered the native Americans?
I think the history of the Europeanization of North America and the genocide of the native people is sad, but how would you have preferred that the stone age culture of North America have been overtaken by the modern civilizations that now dominate 99% of the world? It was inevitable.#: Posted by on 11/12 at 10:32 AM -
'Open discussion' for Dr Thom:
Three major weapons used by the European invaders in their genocidal takeover of North America from the native peoples were 1) modern firearms, 2) intentional spread of disease and 3) destruction of their traditional culture by replacing it with christian belief systems.
Discuss.#: Posted by on 11/12 at 10:42 AM -
ben, did I say I participated in Vietnam for 4 years? I apologize for the "clueless" statement.Peace.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 11:08 AM
-
yes ben, the genocide of native North Americans was " inevitable" ( your words) and therefore justified? This is too far off the subject ( Pat Robertson) and therefore further discussion is counterproductive.I should not have introduced this subject.However,since you criticised my punctuation and/or grammar, I think you should be aware that your sentence structure is also in need of major attention. Hopefully you weren't an English Major.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 11:23 AM
-
You spent four years moving ammuntion around for the 3rd Armored Division while our army was leveling Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. The 3rd AD didn't go to war but obviously a career in genocide support didn't bother you too much--you joined the army and stayed for four years while it was napalming civilians and poisoning the countryside with agent orange. Or maybe you thought we were just there to convert the heathens to christianity?
At least when the Europeans came to North America it was to gain land and resources, not just to exert power for its own sake, trash the place and leave. Whatever you think of the genocide of American native peoples, at least somebody benefitted, not just weapons manufacturers.#: Posted by on 11/12 at 11:37 AM -
I think you are a hacker.Your getting far to personal.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 11:40 AM
-
Excuse me. You're getting far too personal.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 11:41 AM
-
ben, the Only Way you got that info was to Hack My Computer.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 11:51 AM
-
Goat. Self-declared goat, too.
My original comment to you stands.#: Posted by on 11/12 at 12:20 PM -
Harry, In your worldview I am a "Goat". In my worldview you are a misdirected person and a supreme example of the ultimate "Goat" .I think that is underhanded of ben to hack my computer to obtain personal information. I only hope that I don't need to cancel credit cards,etc. This is a very "Nazi" way of dealing with those who disagree. I don't know why you criticise Pat Robertson when you also support ruthless elimination of all who disagree. The Fuehrer and Stalin would be proud of you. You hate Pat Robertson but,then you stoop the same low level that you accuse him of being at .Neo Facist elimination of all who hold alternative beliefs.A clear case of the Pot calling the Kettle Black.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 01:32 PM
-
ben, the Only Way you got that info was to Hack My Computer
Dr.Thom, it might surprise you, but when you write stuff on the internet it's possible for the rest of us to access it. A google search on your email address, which is found next to every post you make here, will show us all the information that ben mentioned.
If you don't want something public, then don't write it on the 'net.#: Posted by on 11/12 at 02:17 PM -
So in other words, I find it highly unlikely that ben has hacked you computer.
Unless you provide proof oif it happened, I think we can safely consider this a case where you've jumped to comclusion, and an appology would probably be in order - if nothing else, then because you have accused ben of doing something criminal, and because you have compared people to Nazis.#: Posted by on 11/12 at 02:21 PM -
Mouse over your name and you will see it shows us your email address. Enter the two main words of the address into google and click on the "cached" link for the second result (the main link goes to a password box but the cached version does not). This takes you to a 3rd AD page. Use your browser's find function to look for your email on that page and you will find your full name and email about halfway down the page, along with your battery, rank, dates of service and your email address.
I don't know how to "hack" anything. Combining my use of google with your emotional reaction to my comments to come up with the idea that I want to 'ruthlessly eliminate' you is just paranoid and weird. You're arguing with one guy who works in a factory and knows how to use a PC, not Hitler or Stalin.
I find it strange that you "have been living in Northern Canada for a long time on a Native Reserve" and "watch very little American TV anymore" while you apparently serve as the pastor at the Ross Church of the Brethren in Spencerville, Ohio (same google search). I guess news about Pat Robertson just doesn't make the long dog sled ride to the Great White North of Western Ohio.
And as todid I say I participated in Vietnam for 4 years
I find fascinating the google result that shows you representing yourself as a vietnam veteran (for a year longer than 3rd AD thinks you served BTW)and talking about being "on the battlefield" and seeing "the howitzers being fired"--strange since your division didn't go to Vietnam. Where exactly was this combat? Or are there two people out there with the same name, using the same email address?
I'll say this, you're nothing if not interesting.#: Posted by on 11/12 at 03:01 PM -
ben, I did not spend all my time in 3rd AD, I commute back and forth to Canada. My Ohio Pastorate was Parttime, I also taught at a College in Ontario during the same time. I am not a P.R. supporter , I took exception to the phrase "Thugs for God". I have spent most of my life helping the poor and disenfranchised. I am Native North American and became a follower of Jesus in my U.S. Army service time. I stand corrected and accept your word that you did not "hack"my computer, please accept my apology. I do not watch much TV because my Ministry involves a lot of travel and I find TV to too filled with Violence ,etc. Many Native people have served in the military because it is an employment opportunity that enables Native people to earn a living rather than live in poverty. That was especially true in the past.I am an Anabaptist since becoming a Christian. Is that enough personal info for you ?
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 03:36 PM
-
ben you seem to have knowledge about the military. Did you serve in the Military? What are your views on Iraq?
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 03:56 PM
-
Making a judgement call is not dogmatic?
No, making a judgment call is not automatically dogmatic. Its only dogmatic if it based on some supposedly unassailable set of standards or ideas, for which no evidence is given for their validity, save for BS excuses like, "I am to blind to see all the people hurt by it.", "A lot of people think its true.", or, "You can't prove I am not wrong, because everything I claim is impossible to prove or disprove." Dogma is a statement that a thing **is** without any more validation that that a lot of people thought it was true, and you don't see any reason to test it. That's the *key*, willingness to test it. Dogma - Its simply true, just because its true. Science - Its 99.99999% certainly true, because I have 5,000 carefully conducted and reproducable studies that say it works that way. -
I didn't realize that it was
populated by "christian bashers". I am looking for open discussion. I didn't realize that there was so much hatred in America for "christians" or is it just Pat Robertson?
The later. I for example have *absolutely* no problem with Christians like http://tildblog.blogspot.com/ What I have a problem with is the insane and incomprehensible tendency of far to many self proclaimed, "More moral than you, because I believe in God", Christians that when confronted by the choice of siding with an Athiest against what even they would otherwise define as evil, or siding with a lunitic like Robertson, on the ***sole*** basis of the fact that he claims to be some sort of #$#@$ prophet. Either something is wrong because it **really** truely hurts people or its not, it doesn't suddenly become OK because the person doing it claims to go to church every Sunday and has a damn TV show. Yet as I said, probably more than 50% of Christians are practically brainwashed into thinking that the more devout some clown claims to be, the more reasonable any lie or immoral act they commit.
I am sure you know the saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Well, way too many supposedly moral people, because they look up to only those that claim the same God as them, pave that road in one inch increments. Its real easy to think, "Gosh! I guess its OK if I treat that women who I have seen dating a lot of people a little worse than everyone else, because I assume she it sleeping with all of them.", followed by, "Well, **that** one I know sleeps around, so I won't even serve them when they come in my store.", etc. The first is an assumption they have no right to make, the later is an escalation of the first immoral act. One stacks on top of the other and they never even see how they are going wrong. Everyone does this to some extent, but only Christians do so en-mass as entire groups, often with the help or guidence of the priest that is **supposed** to be above such mistakes. Then again, Christ is supposed to have said:
"Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Odd then how so many moral relativists are Evangelicals, Fundimentalists and priest that claim more right to the truth of God's word than their congragation. Oh, wait... It specifically warns against those sorts of people...
See Dr. Thom. I don't think religion or Christianity is valueless. I learn quite a bit from modern Fantasy novels that contain morality tales in them as well. I just get a little annoyed, as all of us do, when some clown comes along and says, "If you don't believe in the great and magical whatsit, then you are an immoral Satanist, who would murder your neighbors, if you where not secretly afraid the whatsit is real. Therefor, the protect the rest of us true believers, we are going to deprive you of your freedom, rights, money, property and if you get too uppity, maybe even your life. After all, we can't let you freedom hating, un-American, anti-whatsit, greedy, property stealing murderers have the chance to hurt anyone." Uh, huh... And who is it that is a morally relativistic psyciopath again? I am afraid I lost track some place in the middle of your speech... lol -
Kagehi, I see where you're coming from. I must agree with most of what you say. What I do is totally out of that loop. My calling has been to serve my people and others who are disinfranchised at my own expense.I have also preached against those same people you mention.My ministry is self-supported but, has aided up to 8,000 + people per year. That is the "magic" of true Christianity. It is a far different world than high $ capitalistic,nationalist ,nominal churchianity. As a matter of fact ,few of those "churches" are even interested in what I am doing. I hope you understand what I am saying.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 04:50 PM
-
I took exception to the broadside that stated that christianity is like an extortion racket.
Ok, fair enough. Some might argue that historically is often how churches acted, but that somehow religion itself *isn't* that way. I would hardly call someone with body guards "mofia", simply because mofia are known the have body guards either. If they had the bodyguards break someone's knee caps... There is a seriously annoying tendency of people to exagerate the original intent of statements way past what people necessarilly intended. This is 'exactly' what you did Dr. Thom, by jumping to the conclusion that comparing religion as Pat Robertson defines it, and *how* he acts as a result, to imply that all Christians act like psyciopathic lunitics that use God's wrath as a threat to anyone that doesn't believe the same things as them. Though..., personal experience tells me that the difference is usually only a matter of how much you have to do before a believer tells you, "You are going to hell for that!", or, "God will punish you if you do that!" And it is entirely dependent on how strict their interpretation of that "thruth" is and how many things they think fall outside it. You will find some that you would have to prctically kill a relative of theirs to get threatened, others are so nuts they would start screaming about hell if you didn't wrap your child in three layers of clothes **before** you helped them out of the bath tub after watching them wash themselves, because "touching them" is evil. Or some similar paranoid nonsense.
Don't know why, but I tend to prefer the former a **lot** more than the later... -
</blockquote>What are your views on Iraq?</blockquote>
Lets not go there, please. The sides in this seem divided between those that think its the perfect example of Bush's idiocy, to those that don't see how its not the greatest thing in the word, with only a small number in between that think its both an example of what kind of mess you end up with when an wing nut that listens to his 'gut' more than his advisors is in charge, but that its not going as bad as the press, that vast majority of people like Galloway, that are still smarting from not being able to steal from the oil for food program, and others insists are trying to make look worse than it is. You ask that question here or any place else where free thinkers and athiests post and you might as well, to use the common phrase, "try to herd cats". - Sigh.. Too many posts, not enough proof reading there for me... lol
-
Kagehi, The Theological term for that is 'legalism'. I am not coming from that perspective. What I do is based upon Jesus'teaching 'inasmuch as you have done it unto the least(powerless) of these my brethren ,you have done it unto me'. Most people who make those types of judgements would not travel 1,000's of miles at their own expense when someone in need calls them on the telephone ( this includes many Pastors), that is my Ministry. the people I work with usually do not attend church and are outside of the mainstream. I do not come to judge them but, try to help . That is why I took offense at 'Thugs for God' I do not view myself as a 'Thug for God'. That is why I queried 'why would people that probably did not believe in God react to anything Christian, since they probably believed in situation ethics and relativism'. I wrote my dissertation on the negative impact caused by nominal christianity to Native populations. I distinguish between being a follower of Jesus 'teaching and institutionalized christendom.
#: Posted by on 11/12 at 05:35 PM