Pharyngula

PZ Myers. 2005 Dec 05. Mirecki hospitalized. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/mirecki_hospitalized/>. Accessed 2008 Dec 04.

Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Monday, December 05, 2005

Mirecki hospitalized

Paul Mirecki, the Kansas University professor who righteously mocked the fundies, has been assaulted by a couple of rednecks.

Douglas County sheriff’s deputies are investigating the reported beating of a Kansas University professor who gained recent notoriety for his Internet tirades against Christian fundamentalists.

Kansas University religious studies professor Paul Mirecki reported he was beaten by two men about 6:40 a.m. today on a roadside in rural Douglas County. In a series of interviews late this afternoon, Mirecki said the men who beat him were making references to the controversy that has propelled him into the headlines in recent weeks.

“I didn’t know them, but I’m sure they knew me,” he said.

Mirecki said he was driving to breakfast when he noticed the men tailgating him in a pickup truck.

“I just pulled over hoping they would pass, and then they pulled up real close behind,” he said. “They got out, and I made the mistake of getting out.”

He said the men beat him about the upper body with their fists, and he said he thinks they struck him with a metal object. He was treated and released at Lawrence Memorial Hospital.

Fundamentalists: ignorant thugs with a bible.

There may be other details coming up on the attack…I've gotten some email on the subject. I'll have to wait for confirmation one way or the other before saying more.

Posted by PZ Myers on 12/05 at 07:12 PM
Academics • Godlessness • 9 Trackbacks • Other weblogs • Permalink

)-:
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 07:26 PM
I guess it is the doom of all great thinkers to be beaten by ignorant, foolish thugs. The same thing happened to Voltaire. At least we can all hope that history will go the way it has followed so far in that the liberals end up overcoming hardwired conservatives, even if it takes many years of struggle.

Of course, if nothing is urgently done to stop all that is encouraging the stupidities, that may not happen.
#: Posted by Archosaurian on 12/05 at 07:35 PM
The godly work of right-good Christians of Kansas, I see. I'm sure those Bubbas are proud. And their wives and kids are "seen and not heard" and their animals are scared. These are the same yahoos who claim that Chrisianity is under attack by Atheist evildoers.

I sincerely hope Dr. Mirecki recovers quickly.

I see he is a Doctor of Theology and is an expert in ancient manuscripts. I'd rather hear that the two noodleheads who beat him up were upset about him cutting them off on the highway or something. But it's because he's dared to question the supposedly reverent and pure fundamentalism hold dear?!? Holy crap!
#: Posted by Don on 12/05 at 07:37 PM
WWJD?
#: Posted by pough on 12/05 at 07:47 PM
"Douglas County sheriff’s deputies are investigating the reported beating of a Kansas University professor who gained recent notoriety for his Internet tirades against Christian fundamentalists."

Internet tirades?

I thought it was an email.

And I didn't think there were such things as "Christian fundamentalists" any more. I thought they were all "born again Christians."

It's all so confusing.

Let's just call them "devoutly ignorant and bigoted asswipes" from now on.

That way we won't get confused about who we're talking about.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 07:58 PM
Yeah. I do "internet tirades".

Do I need to get a nightstick for the car?
#: Posted by PZ Myers on 12/05 at 08:12 PM
PZ, you might want to pack heat. This is appalling.

Here is some of the words of wisdom from that jerk who has been going after Mirecki:

Some of his inflammatory message board postings were made while he attended KU in the early 1990s as a graduate student in the sociology department. He worked for the university as a teaching assistant some of that time.

Altevogt, in a 1994 posting to a discussion board, talked about an article he’d read and took a poke at Hillary Clinton.

“This is an excellent article for those of you who can access it, since the network propaganda pigs tend to avoid saying anything negative about Hitlary.”

In another posting in 1996, Altevogt talked to another discussion board member who was defending comments by writer Andrei Codrescu:

“The subtle distinction you’re missing Nazi-boy is that there’s a difference between being taken to heaven by god, and wishing that people would die because you disagree with them, and moreover stating that the world would be a better place as a result of their deaths. The fact that you don’t understand that distinction is why I correctly have identified both you and Codrescu as crypto-nazis. The last group that failed to make that subtle distinction slaughtered six million jews.”

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/03/conservative_critic_known_inflammatory_speech/?evolution

I noticed you commented over on King's blog. It will be interesting to see if he responds.
#: Posted by Eva Young on 12/05 at 08:20 PM
I think it's great what he tried to do, but he really should have been more careful. I hope he at least got the license number of those thugs who assaulted him.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 08:26 PM
PZ, you gotta hire some body guards. Not only will it be for your protection, it'll look awesome.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 08:29 PM
Posted at Inside Higher Ed:

A few folks here just don't get it. They seem to think that if one's belief, no matter how stupid or harmful or hateful, is based on a religious dogma, then that belief is above harsh criticism.

I recognize that this is the way our media works and habitual liars make strange "Bible-based" statements to our nations journalists and "pundits" every week and are not seriously questioned about why non-members of the religion should give a hoot.

But we're not on TV and I'm not a pundit and -- guess what -- neither is Dr. Mirecki. In fact, Dr. Mirecki is an expert on religion and how religions function and grow and shrink and die.

Religions do shrink and die, you know. It happens all the time. It's happening right now to some religion, somewhere. Anyone want to disagree?

Feudi writes

"I think he is correct that ID should be taught as part of a religious curriculum. However, his whole attitude towards the subject is so obviously poisoned before the class even starts"

Really? Is Dr. Mirecki's "attitude" "obviously poisoned" or has Dr. Mirecki maybe -- just maybe --LEARNED as a matter of FACT that the Discovery Institute and its employees are documented LIARS who are promoting "ID theory" in an attempt to diminish the status of science and promote their belief that the United States should be run from the top down as an officially Christian nation?

Is that not a possibility?

Bill Dockery writes

"attitude revealed by his leaked e-mail (a) does not show a commitment to truth-seeking "

Really? Or does Dr. Mirecki's "attitude" merely show that Dr. Mirecki has possibly -- just possibly -- LEARNED as a matter of FACT that the Discovery Institute and its employees are documented LIARS who are promoting "ID theory" in an attempt to diminish the status of science and promote their belief that the United States should be run from the top down as an officially Christian nation?

Is that not a possibility?

"Having a class with the dedicated purpose of attacking the views of others hardly sounds like free inquiry and independant thought."

How about a class which attacks the view that blowing up buildings so you can die as a martyr and further the struggle of your people in their efforts to defeat infidels is a productive way to behave? Assuming students are free to ask questions, how is this not "free inquiry" and "independent thought"?

I didn't hear anything about Dr. Mirecki not allowing people to ask questions in his class. You are smearing Dr. Mirecki and making it sound as if he is engaged in some sort of brainwashing exercise.

Perhaps he is merely telling the truth about the "fundies" at the Discovery Institute and their behavior.

Did you consider that possibility?

Maybe the "fundies" at the Discovery Institute NEED a big slap in their fat face because they all the time and our lazy media let's them get away with it?

Did you consider that possibility?

I'm just engaging some free inquiry here.

Joe V. writes

"we do not alienate the very people we are trying to educate."

The people who are alienated by comments such as Dr. Mirecki's do not want to be educated. They want to educate you. They want to educate you about Jesus Christ and his Word. They don't care about science. They don't care about facts. They care about promoting their religion. Search the net for information about the Discovery Institute's "WEdge Document" if you want to learn more about this.

"But how does someone with such a derisive attitude towards any religious belief (ID, Buddhism, wiccan, or whatever) become chair of a religious studies department"

Huh? How about the religious belief that women are like cattle to be sold and must never step outside of the house and should be killed if they are raped? If I'm a female professor of religious studies, can I not hold a derisive attitude toward that belief?

This is exactly what I was getting at above. Religious beliefs are not above criticism. The religious beliefs of Christians in this country are often de facto above criticism for fear of reprisal if they are criticized.

Dr. Mirecki will be happy to tell you about that, I'm sure.

kmf writes

"He has not only revealed his strong personal opinion of IDers, he has armed critics of evolution who argue that academia is intellectually dishonest and hostile toward conservative Christians."

Dr. Mirecki's opinions barely register on the scale. The "critics of evolution" will take virtually any statement about anything made by a scientist who criticizes "ID theory" into an attack on religion.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 08:36 PM
PZ's post was on Panda's Thumb and then ... it's gone.

That's sort of interesting.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 08:56 PM
Hmm, does anyone know if you're allowed to carry a concealed firearm in Kansas?

I know that if I were in Kansas and I was Gay/Black/Jewish or an outspoken Atheist, I would definetly take refuge in scripture.

The scripture that says "HK USP .45 Auto" on the slide.

I am 100% serious. This is not a joke. I find the thought of physical violence abhorrent. The good doc needed options. Did you know that merely brandishing a firearm woulda been enough to prevent this horrid abuse of his person? Dead rednecks would not even have been necessary, even they know what self-preservation is.
#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 12/05 at 09:04 PM
I voluntarily pulled it from PT for a little while, while leaving it here. There are some Kansas people on the PT mailing list, and they're keeping an eye on their local media for further updates.

No, I'm not getting a gun. There have been no threats against me, and even if there had been, I do not believe in reacting to stupid threats with deadly force. Let's keep this about Mirecki -- I think one important piece of protection I have is that I live in a small town where everyone knows everyone else.
#: Posted by PZ Myers on 12/05 at 09:11 PM
But how do you KNOW that your bullets are deadly to humans? I've never seen one of your bullets kill a human being.

Your belief that your bullets are deadly to humans is no different than my belief in God. It's just a matter of faith, except my evidence for God is better.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 09:16 PM
In an attempt to put the "What would Jesus do?" fallacy to bed at least among a few people:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. —Matthew 10:34-35

I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. —Revelation 2:23

So, WWJD? Forgive him or take a lead pipe to him and his children, the Bible plainly supports both reactions.
#: Posted by jinx on 12/05 at 09:17 PM
hehe, it's not deadly force until you make a hit PZ. =)

But of course, I respect everyone's opinions on this, since as a liberal against excessive gun control, I am in the minority (and getting guns for self-defense is too much of a hassle where I live, I carry a wet noodle for personal defense).

Having a loved one assasinated tends to polarize your views on this issue, one way or the other I think.

Either way, you certainly don't make "stupid threats" if you know you may have to back them up with your life.
#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 12/05 at 09:19 PM
Obviously what happened to Mirecki is scary and awful.
But is it fair to paint all fundamentalist Christians with the same brush ("thugs") because two of them are violent?

And to the guy who defended Mirecki's email... Mirecki was wrong to have put it this way ("slap in big fat face", etc.) As a professor, it's just not kosher. Not because of the Christianized sociopolitical climate, but because this is just not how professorship ought to be done, its way too prejudiced and personally vitriolic.

But yes, it is horrible that he got hurt and I hope he's ok.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 09:21 PM
Tastant, the thing to keep in mind is that a lot of far-right evangelical and fundamentalist rhetoric is literally militant: armies, soldiers, and the like, not to mention their obsession with the actual military. Beating a university professor -- and keep in mind that they were following his truck, which implies surveillance and premeditation -- is the logical outcome of their rhetoric.

Now, it's true that most people on the far-right religious fringe, whether evangelical or fundamentalist, wouldn't openly countenance assault. But most segregationists wouldn't have supported lynchings, either. That doesn't absolve them of aiding and abetting what amounts to structural violence.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 09:32 PM
Tastant, your compassion and concern is so underwhelming.
#: Posted by removed on 12/05 at 09:32 PM
Frederico,

A couple of points: Brandishing a firearm does not necessarily prevent abuse. In fact, it may escalate it. Anyone with any firearms training should know that you do not display or point a firearm unless you are prepared to terminate a threat. Furthermore, most gunshot injuries/killing occur within 25 feet. If one displays a gun with the intent to threaten, and are not prepared to kill, then they are risking the possibility of injury or death either by being killed with their own firearm (it happens more often that you might know), or another person's firearm. Furthermore, even if one is unarmed, and a person displays a firearm, 25 feet can be closed remarkably quickly. So, quickly that easily within 2 seconds, the person holding the firearm is in now in immediate jeopardy.

In many cases carrying a firearm is not the panacea that some believe it is, even if it is an H&K USP.
#: Posted by BWJones on 12/05 at 09:34 PM
Calling fundies 'fundies' is fine - it is not an insult, it is taxonomy.

Saying "big fat face" is bad style, for sure. Not dignified. Perhaps he should write a blog where he can rant like that. That would be an appropriate place for such statments. Error of judgement.

Getting beat up by thugs is being a victim of a crime. Violent crime. Perhaps also hate crime. There is a difference here - the thugs did not stop him to tell him that his face is also big and fat. They sent him to the hospital - he should send them to prison.

BTW, and OT, does anyone know what is wrong with Blogspot? It's been down for hours and there is no note on the Blogger homepage (even the Blogger blog, where they tend to post such announcements, is down).
#: Posted by coturnix on 12/05 at 09:36 PM
Insights into how/why this happened:

http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2005/11/ku_should_get_t.html

A chairman of a religion department shouldn’t be hostile to conservative Christianity. How about making Mirecki go through a paddling line at one of KU’s fraternities?
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 09:36 PM
All good points Jones,

But, iirc, the blacks who were lynched, the gays who are still threatened, beaten and/or killed for their sexuality. I believe the state cannot protect us 24/7, so that is in our hands.

If a person rushes you when you draw on him, his life is forfeit.

Anyway, this is off topic. Point is, we'll have to agree to disagree. You can go ahead and keep on not liking them, and people like me can go ahead and keep carrying them, at least in the states (hypothetically, my carrying one protects you even if you don't =).
#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 12/05 at 09:52 PM
This was supposed to say:
But, iirc, the blacks who were lynched, the gays who are still threatened, beaten and/or killed for their sexuality *were also unarmed*.

Now back to our regular posts.
#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 12/05 at 09:55 PM
"You can go ahead and keep on not liking them, and people like me can go ahead and keep carrying them, at least in the states"

Good luck in San Francisco.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 09:58 PM
I'm with BWJones. You do not pull a gun unless you intend to shoot, and you do not shoot unless you intend to kill. There must be no hesitation or second-guessing in a gun owner (which is why I could never be a gun owner). I think that this kind of discussion is premature.

Let's see what happens with the investigation. If no one is arrested soon, and if the major media ignore this, we should raise a major stink. Let's send letters of support and cards to Paul (and $$ if he has lots of medical bills), and if the authorities sit on this, let's issue statements, let's march down that road in Kansas. (Though it's likely never to come to that.)

Everyone be safe.
#: Posted by Kristine Harley on 12/05 at 10:03 PM
That is bad news. I hate to see the situation get so out of control in Kansas. Pity the fundies are making this into an all or none situation.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:05 PM
A chairman of a religion department shouldn’t be hostile to conservative Christianity.

Why not? Seriously, other than perhaps risking a lapse in professorial manners, is there anything wrong with taking a hostile stance towards a particular religious faith? I would say not, anymore than there being anything wrong with a professor of philosophy taking a hostile stance towards dualism.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:15 PM
Watch this turn out to be a hoax ala Professor Kerri Dunn of Claremont.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:16 PM
It just never ceases to amaze me that these morons defend their ideology with violence, (in violation of their ideology). They're Christians, "for Christ's sake".
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:25 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Mirecki's inflamatory statements were in an email to a closed listserve.

If so, I'm not even convinced there was any real error of judgement. After all, a listserve with limited readership is - if anything - more private than a blog. Overall, making a negative crack about fundamentalists may not be diplomatic, but the vitriol with which Mirecki has been attacked for being impolite (hardly a crime) is frightening.

And this news is simply appalling. It is also scary to see all of the posts on the Lawrence KS Journal web page that is linked that accuse Mirecki of faking the attack. At one level I would never dismiss anything as impossible - academics are human and are capable of all of the wacky behaviors that any other group of human beings are capable of. But to accuse Mirecki with no evidence really says something horrible. How much basic humanity does it take - even if you are a fire-breathing fundie - to say "beatin' people up is a bad thing, even if they are atheists..."
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:26 PM
Buridan: I know. Even my mother doesn't open my get well cards.

and tWB said: Tastant, the thing to keep in mind is that a lot of far-right evangelical and fundamentalist rhetoric is literally militant: armies, soldiers, and the like, not to mention their obsession with the actual military. Beating a university professor -- and keep in mind that they were following his truck, which implies surveillance and premeditation -- is the logical outcome of their rhetoric.

Oh, I don't know. I think the "take things to far gene" is just distributed amongst people irrespective of their beliefs, so you will have jihad terrorists and redneck vigilantes for Christ but you will have atheist lunatic systems like Stalinism too. My guess is you, tWB, tune in most acutely when you hear speak of Christian armies and war metaphors and selectively forget much of the other content of Christianspeak, but usually when I hear kooky Christian ministers on TV they are talking about the salvation thing or tempting by Satan or putting God in your heart, etc. I don't see the Mirecki beating as a logical outcome in any necessary way.

Some fundamentalist Christians are just old ladies baking pies.

This being said, I do feel that if the goal is to maximize the chance for utilitarian happiness, Christianity or any religion is not the way to go.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:27 PM
Seriously, other than perhaps risking a lapse in professorial manners, is there anything wrong with taking a hostile stance towards a particular religious faith?

My understanding is that it is perfectly acceptable -- indeed, it is mandated -- to assume that those who worship different deities are going to rot in hell and suffer unbearable pain for all eternity.

You just aren't supposed to say it to anyone except people who don't know better.

Like little kids.

But it's bad manners or even unconstitutional to tell a fundamentalist liar who espouses anti-gay and anti-science bigotry that they are lying bigots.

That's what Jim Dobson told me.

Of course, Jim Dobson also told me to take showers with my son so we could compare penises and embolden our heterosexuality.

Grain of salt, etc.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:31 PM
> Good luck in San Francisco.

hehe, I live in canada, we have no need of guns, because our society is politer then yours =) (we do have an alarming number of guns though, we're just not as trigger happy as the states it seems).

I have my opinions, but any talk of concealed carry is hypothetical.
#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 12/05 at 10:31 PM
The amazing thing about those ignorant thugs is that they aren't even bright enough to understand that their attack won't do the cause of Christian Fundamentalism any good.
The movement will get another black eye as a result.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:32 PM
Some fundamentalist Christians are just old ladies baking pies.

Yeah, like 30% of them.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:37 PM
How timely!

http://www.thegodmovie.com/press/releases/waronchristmas.html

Beyond Belief Media has formally declared war on Christmas, the December 25 holiday in which Christians celebrate the birth of the mythical figure Jesus Christ, the company announced today.

“Christian conservatives complain nonstop about the ‘War on Christmas,’ but there really isn’t any such war,” said Beyond Belief Media president Brian Flemming , a former fundamentalist Christian who is now an atheist activist. “So we have decided to wage one, to demonstrate what it would look like if Jesus’ birthday were truly attacked.”

As its opening salvo, Beyond Belief Media has purchased advertisements this week in the New York Times , USA Today and the New Yorker magazine. The company’s 300-member volunteer “street team” is also descending on Christmas-themed public events with random “guerilla giveaways” of Beyond Belief’s acclaimed DVD THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE .

“No Christmas pageant or Nativity display is safe from our troops,” said Flemming. “Wherever the mythical figure Jesus is celebrated as if he were real, we will be there with an information barrage. We will undercut the idea that there is any point at all to celebrating the ‘birth’ of a character in a fairy tale.”

#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:52 PM
“No Christmas pageant or Nativity display is safe from our troops,” said Flemming. “Wherever the mythical figure Jesus is celebrated as if he were real, we will be there with an information barrage. We will undercut the idea that there is any point at all to celebrating the ‘birth’ of a character in a fairy tale.”

Heh. But will they be carrying concealed weapons??? ;)
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 10:58 PM
Frederico,

You might be surprised to know that I am in fact a gun owner. Furthermore, I also possess a concealed carry permit because of a job I held as an undergraduate. However, I was also well trained and am familiar with tactics as well as the statistics related to handgun injuries/deaths and I also respect the desire of individuals and groups to prevent carrying of firearms in their businesses, homes and places of worship.

Honestly, there just is not much cause for the average person to carry. Look, I obviously support gun rights to an extent, but I also believe that anyone licensed to carry a firearm concealed must be able to prove a level of competence and proficiency so that they do not complicate matters for others including those around you and any police officers that may be responding. The last thing I want is some guy pulling a gun and complicating a situation that does not warrant pulling a firearm.

For all the rednecks out there to worry about, there are just as many folks out there who are carrying firearms without the appropriate training or skills necessary. Who should we be more concerned with? A redneck that wants to pick a fight, or a scared, angry white guy with a gun and no skills?

Also, for 1998, you might be interested in these statistics of the number of people killed by handguns.

373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
#: Posted by BWJones on 12/05 at 10:58 PM
best wishes and quick recovery to Professor Mirecki.

y'know, there's a line of reasoning, however idealistic, which says the reason governments shouldn't use capital punishment and the like to enforce the law is that it justifies to their citizens that might makes right.

and what is an attack on a professor supposed to achieve? is it supposed to make people afraid of giving opinions, of expressing their viewpoint?

is this, then, the new, social conservative, how-to-deal-with-an-abortion-doctor democratic way? the means are justified by the ends. this is, after all, a new kind of war.

and a professor of theology no less?

no, sadly, it's the sentiment of a bumper sticker i saw plastered proudly on a car a couple of years ago spread cancerously throughout the country:
My kid beat up your honors student.

#: Posted by ekzept on 12/05 at 11:01 PM
The more I reflect on this, the more impressed I am.

Assuming this isn't a total load of crap, it would represent the most visible expression of atheism and skepticism towards religion that I can recall in my lifetime.

About time.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 11:02 PM
any information on the numbers in Switzerland? there are a lot of firearms there, prepositioned for defense. someone told me 30+ years ago, however, that these are very seldom used even in crime. apparently if a crime is committed using the prepositioned weapons, the trial is a military court, with military penalties.
#: Posted by ekzept on 12/05 at 11:04 PM
that question was to BWJones. sorry for the ambiguity.
#: Posted by ekzept on 12/05 at 11:05 PM
BWJones, next time you misspell my name I'm gonna make a voodoo doll of you and stick a pin in its nut.

Don't make me draw that pin. I do not believe in warning pins.
#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 12/05 at 11:06 PM
Or Rich Lapchick, Zog.

I know nothing about Mirecki, but this is hardly typical behavior by rednecks.

On the other hand ...

Time will tell.
#: Posted by on 12/05 at 11:13 PM
Blogspot is up again. I hear that the Kansas news station kept of flashing the email of Mirecki's that talked about the "fat face" of the "fundies" when they talked about him getting beat up. Apparently the guy who has gotten Mirecki's postings to a yahoogroups to the press, John Altevogt is skeptical that the event actually happened.
#: Posted by Eva Young on 12/05 at 11:13 PM
ekzept,

In Switzerland, gun ownership is compulsory. However, regulation is much more closely regulated than it is in the US. If I recall correctly, handguns may be purchased, but they are registered as is the ammunition that you purchase for them. I don't have any statistics, but I am sure you can Google them. However, I do seem to remember something about handgun murders in Switzerland per capita as being second in the world only to the US.... I could be wrong about that though, so don't quote me.
#: Posted by BWJones on 12/05 at 11:15 PM
F.e.d.e.r.i.c.o,

Sorry dude. I will have to plead guilty and blame it on my dyslexia. When I was a kid, I used to have the class in hysterics when it came time to read out loud. But I honestly see words funny sometimes, particularly those I am not familiar with.
#: Posted by BWJones on 12/05 at 11:20 PM
Too late.

#: Posted by Federico Contreras on 12/05 at 11:21 PM
I do seem to remember something about handgun murders in Switzerland per capita as being second in the world only to the US

The US is 24th in the world for per capita murder (no telling how much guns play into that, much murder in the the world and US is knives, poisoning, etc). Many assume the US would be close to the top: stats.

Guns are used to successfully defend in the US between 2 and 5 million times a year depending on whose stats you believe and citizens are dramatically less likely to shoot someone without legal justification than are police (sorry I don't have links/numbers right now). Guns in the US kill between 10,000-20,000 per year and it's at a low right now. Cars kill 4 times as many but no one talks about reducing the national speed limit to 25 even though it would save 30,000 lives. It would be ludicrous; those lives are balanced against the overwhelming national gain of commerce and freedom.
#: Posted by jinx on 12/05 at 11:49 PM
g — 12/05 at 11:13 PM
Blogspot is up again. I hear that the Kansas news station kept of flashing the email of Mirecki's that talked about the "fat face" of the "fundies" when they talked about him getting beat up. Apparently the guy who has gotten Mirecki's postings to a yahoogroups to the press, John Altevogt is skeptical that the event actually happened.

Typical.

Which side of the ID/evolution debate has been caught in multiple bald-faced lies in court?

Pharisees, all of them....
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 12:15 AM
You guys act like you have never gotten your ass kicked in the south before.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 12:34 AM
This incident illustrates the critical importance of having the means to defend oneself close at hand. A gun is like a tourniquet: you hope you never need it, but when you need it, you need it immediately, and you need it very badly.

http://www.pinkpistols.org/index2.html

-jcr
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 01:21 AM
Jinx,

The per capita murder rate in the USA is also greately affected by the War On Some Drugs. We used to have a lot of people in the liquor racket shooting each other in the streets of NYC and Chicago, and that came to a screeching halt with the end of Prohibition. It started up again in the 1960's, when the government decided to ignore the lessons from the previous round of prohibition.

-jcr
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 01:30 AM
Saying "big fat face" is bad style, for sure. Not dignified. Perhaps he should write a blog where he can rant like that. That would be an appropriate place for such statments. Error of judgement.

If anything, isn't an email to the members of a freethinker society he personally advises a more dignified/less inflammatory place to say that than any publically-available blog? I probably wouldn't say it in either forum, especially were I a professor rather than a lowly grad, but he clearly wasn't trying to piss off fundamentalists--he didn't expect them to read it at all.

I wonder if this might lead to the class being reinstated?
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 02:16 AM
Jinx and others,
I guess the table you are looking for is http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap . USA comes in as 8th on the list of firearms murders per capita, Switzerland as 19th (closely followed by Canada).
The top three, South Africa, Colombia and Thailand, are way beyond any other nations.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 02:42 AM
"The US is 24th in the world for per capita murder (no telling how much guns play into that, much murder in the the world and US is knives, poisoning, etc). Many assume the US would be close to the top"

Yes, but note that the top 23 are *all* third-world/ex-Soviet nations. Yay! There are fewer murders in the US than there are in nations where civilization is on the verge of collapse! You have to go to #30, Finland, before you can find another first-world nation. Pretty depressing if you ask me.
#: Posted by Jonathan Badger on 12/06 at 03:49 AM
One might have thought that if they were Christians, they'd have forgiven him...
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 04:03 AM
I created a digg for this story on digg.com. Please go along and digg it to promote it to the front page. This story needs more coverage.
#: Posted by Ricardo on 12/06 at 04:31 AM
jinx,

To echo Jonathan, the fact that the US is #24 is irrelevant. The relevant comparisons are to other industrialized and affluent countries, and the US is appalling by that criterion. At 4.3 per 100,000 the US is tops (er, bottoms...) for industrialized nations and nearly twice the 2.8 per 100,000 in Finland. And those folks don't even see the sun half the friggin' year...talk about something that will put you off your rocker.

Joking aside, John C. Randolph is correct when he says a major contributor to the high murder rates in the states is the war on some drugs. But there is more complexity - the drugs that are illegal in the states are illegal many other places, but they don't drive the same social ills there.

In that context, a subset of gun owners who are ...ahem... stupid are the problem in the US, not guns. The easy availability and the virtual encouragement to walk around packing heat create a very negative situation. And the recent passage of legislation in my home state that is essentially a statement that you don't have to use common sense when dealing with threats is a prime example. Maybe most people will use common sense anyway, but it might be good if the gummint encouraged common sense! If responsible folks want to use guns in appropriate ways I can get behind that. But the NRA seems to have the attitude that guns should be more available than cars! I think there should be minimal standards before you can control an urban assault vehicle (or even a spiffy hybrid) and I think there should be minimal standards before you can purchase something that will let you squeeze off a few rounds at the neighbor 'cos they had a BBQ that lastest 'til 10:15pm when they said everything would wrap up by 10pm (mostly the standards would be that it is unacceptable to squeeze off a few rounds at your neighbor for that reason!).
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 04:34 AM
Some fundamentalist Christians are just old ladies baking pies.

Yeah, like the little group of pie-baking little old ladies who murdered my mom by brainwashing her that God would perform a miraculous healing of her breast cancer, so that it would be sinful to seek out medical treatment. No, these were not Jehovah's Witnesses, they were just your ordinary garden-variety Christian fundies.

But it's not "violence."
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 07:06 AM
You have to go to #30, Finland, before you can find another first-world nation

One of the things different about the US is our ethnic diversity. IMO,A comparison to Canada is more appropriate than to Finland.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 07:44 AM
Why does ethnic diversity lead to more murder? You might have a case if most murder was inter-ethnic; but as far as I know, that is not true.
#: Posted by Arun on 12/06 at 07:55 AM
Yeah, like the little group of pie-baking little old ladies who murdered my mom by brainwashing her that God would perform a miraculous healing of her breast cancer, so that it would be sinful to seek out medical treatment.

God, man, I'm sorry. That sucks.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 08:29 AM
I wonder how many Fundies have been beat up for telling non-fundies that they're going to burn in hell?
My bet, probably not that many.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 08:38 AM
Very unfortunate news. Hope everyone will keep us informed of any further developments. Unfortunately there's a tradition of violence against people who say things that others don't want to hear ...
#: Posted by Keith Douglas on 12/06 at 08:58 AM
There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar trying to make up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening. The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 09:09 AM
jinx Guns are used to successfully defend in the US between 2 and 5 million times a year depending on whose stats you believe

Actually, all of your stats are from gun advocate sources, including known liar John Lott (2.1 million). The low figure is somewhere around 110,000, IIRC, from the control advocates. More pertinent is that the surveys of "defensive gun use" also show that the guns are fired in anywhere from 21%-67% of all incidents. Take it that there is no such thing as "brandishing" as a useful tactic.

Prof. Mireki made the mistake of stopping and getting out of the car, and he knows it was a mistake. Now all of you do. Just keep boogy-ing to the nearest well populated/policed area, and keep your old-fashioned tire-iron under the front seat, just in case. For home defense, get a dog. Rottweilers are adorable.

Self-defense is a state of mind, paranoia is an illness. Try to keep the two seperate.

The question is, is this a new "terror" tactic to stifle free-thought? Are the hordes ready to take up pitchforks and torches? If so, can we lob diseased cow carcasses at DI, I've been itching to try out a trebuchet.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 09:17 AM
I don't believe Mirecki needed a gun, folks. He just needed to keep driving. Before I go on about this, I must say that I agree with all of you that what happened to him is an outrage, I hope he'll be alright, and those two thugs who attacked him should be put away for a long time.

But if Mirecki showed bad judgement in his e-mails, he showed even worse judgement behind the wheel. When you're being followed by strange men in a strange vehicle, don't stop, and don't get out, especially not in a remote area! Call 911 if you've got a cell phone. Otherwise, drive to the nearest police station, or a public place, preferably one under video surveillance, and get help.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 09:24 AM
A minor quibble on usage in the title: "Mirecki hospitalized" - does "treated and released" qualify as "hospitalized"?
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 09:31 AM
Roadtripper's quite right. Any idiot playing road tag with you has too little regard for his own safety to confront. Besides, police in the US have a rather dim view of people who stand up to bullies, in my experience.

I do hope the Prof. manages to get charges pressed.

On the topic of gun violence: be careful of "handgun death" statistics and the like, which often include suicides and accidents (or fail to disclose is such numbers are included or not). You might argue that the accidents wouldn't have happened without firearms present, but the suicides would likely have gone ahead.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 09:48 AM
Sorry to contradict you Gridflay, but guns actually do increase the suicide rate. For the sake of brevity I will say this: Women attempt suicide at a far greater rate than men, but men have a higher actual suicide rate. The main difference between the two sets is not genitalia, but rather method. Men use guns at a far higher rate.

Suicide is characterised as a impulsive behavior. Guns are easily accessible and shooting oneself is generally not reversable. Just putting dangerous medicines in blister packs as opposed to bottles has lowered suicide rates by those meds drastically. The ease, accessibility, and permanance of the means are very large factors in suicide.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:11 AM
So I'm guessing the two morons that assaulted Prof. Mirecki are products of the Kansas school system?
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:17 AM
In case anyone cares, the consensus at Free Republic is that Mirecki beat himself up.
#: Posted by arensb on 12/06 at 10:25 AM
It's worse that that on Free Republic. Several posters have opined that he wasn't beaten nearly badly enough; a couple of others claim his original statements about fundies were 'fighting words' that justify the violence. One has a photoshopped image of Mirecki, looking like he's just been beaten, with a balloon saying "I've been Cristianized". (sic)

A modicum of skepticism is justified in this case, until all the facts come out. However, there is absolutely no doubt some fundamentalist Christians are cheering it, and that is shocking.
#: Posted by Gerard Harbison on 12/06 at 10:31 AM
Just putting dangerous medicines in blister packs as opposed to bottles has lowered suicide rates by those meds drastically.

Fascinating! I never would have thought of that.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:33 AM
There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar ...
thanks, Dark Matter, that brings back memories. saw CO three times i believe. oh, three-and-a-half. saw it once with a date who decided to walk out a third of the way through.
#: Posted by ekzept on 12/06 at 10:34 AM
It's worse that that on Free Republic. Several posters have opined that he wasn't beaten nearly badly enough; a couple of others claim his original statements about fundies were 'fighting words' that justify the violence.

Reminds me of anti-Semites: half of them say the holocaust never happened and the other admit it happened but say the Jews deserved it. Many of them say both things.

One has a photoshopped image of Mirecki, looking like he's just been beaten, with a balloon saying "I've been Cristianized". (sic)

Just when you have yourself half-convinced that your stereotypes of fundies might be too harsh, someone comes along to confirm that if anything they're far worse than you realize...
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:46 AM
However, there is absolutely no doubt some fundamentalist Christians are cheering it, and that is shocking.

It's not shocking at all. These fundies are dangerous barbarian lunatics. Most of them are only fundies because having a big-bad rapture-ready God makes them feel like tough guys.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:47 AM
I was thinking the other way, would a less diverse ethnic country be less violent? I think the US is more violent than Finland and I don't think the availability of firearms is the reason. Wasn't that one of the points Moore was making in his film? Canada has just as many guns per capita but they still have less violence.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:52 AM
The fundies LOVE blood and violence. I mean come on; "Passion of the Christ", "Left Behind". The fundies like two things: Pretending to feel persecuted so they can get all riled up and angry, and the idea of taking "revenge" on the people who are "persecuting" them (i.e. anyone who isn't a Christian fundie).
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:53 AM
Canada is pretty ethically diverse. Toronto is one of the most diverse cities you could find and yet there are many major US cities whose rate of violent crime is much higher.
I believe that the reason for the US' higher rate of violent crime has to do with cultural differences that I can't put my finger on. My bet however is that it's connected to the higher poverty rates and the much more stratified society found in the US.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:57 AM
The SOMA website mentions that they are the only agnostic/atheist group on the KU campus against 40 Christian groups. It will be interesting to see how many of those so-called Christians live up to their beliefs.

Matthew 7:20

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 10:58 AM
would a less diverse ethnic country be less violent?

I don't know, but you may want to look at statistics for South Africa, Central and South America (I believe Brazil has significant white, hispanic, and native American populations), and Russia. I haven't been keeping up with geography, but the former Soviet Union had a boatload of different types of people.

For comparison, I think that Korea, Japan, Canada, and the Scandinavian countries are less diverse.
#: Posted by arensb on 12/06 at 11:01 AM
would a less diverse ethnic country be less violent?

I doubt it, some of the most violent parts of America are ethnically very UNdiverse.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 11:05 AM
For comparison, I think that...Canada...countries are less diverse

I would beg to differ I don't know where you get your information from.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 11:07 AM
Anecdote is not data and all that, but in my Canadian high school calculus class of 30-odd people, I was literally the only person who'd been born in Canada. While no other class has been quite that extreme, there's certainly quite a variety of people represented everywhere I go. I think we're pretty diverse here!
#: Posted by mangala on 12/06 at 11:18 AM
I would beg to differ I don't know where you get your information from.

In this case, out of my nether regions, quite frankly. If you have better information, I will be glad for the correction.
#: Posted by arensb on 12/06 at 11:20 AM
I believe that the reason for the US' higher rate of violent crime has to do with cultural differences that I can't put my finger on.

I agree. Although, I disagree that it has to do with poverty or stratification. If you lost your job and house I don't think you'd get violent. You might want to, but in the end you'd just get another job and house.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 11:32 AM
For what it's worth, I wish Professor Mirecki a speedy recovery and hope the people who assaulted him are caught soon.

God I could have done without that Free Republic thread. Yeah, 'fundies' is a code word for religious conservatives. It couldn't possibly refer to those Christians proud to call themselves fundamentalists. And how terrible for a teacher to be pro science. To think they'd want to slap reality in the face of anyone.

-The Rev. Schmitt.
#: Posted by The Rev. Schmitt. on 12/06 at 11:33 AM
I agree. Although, I disagree that it has to do with poverty or stratification. If you lost your job and house I don't think you'd get violent. You might want to, but in the end you'd just get another job and house.

Um, are you actually saying that violent crime rates have nothing to do with poverty???
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 11:39 AM
Um, are you actually saying that violent crime rates have nothing to do with poverty???

Yes.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 11:45 AM
Diversity stats for Toronto:

http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_facts/diversity.htm

religioustolerance.org also list southern Ontario as one if the most religiously diverse areas in the world.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 11:51 AM
Then how would you explain the very high correlation between high crime neighborhoods and very poor neighborhoods?
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 11:53 AM
Then how would you explain the very high correlation between high crime neighborhoods and very poor neighborhoods?

That's a rather simplistic correlation, isn't it? What if the very poor neighborhoods were black? Would you say there was a high correlation because they are black? Of course, you wouldn't. Violent crime comes from violent people. Maybe if someone is violent they can't hold a job and end up in poverty. Look at the rednecks that attacked Mirecki, did they do it because they were poor?
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 12:05 PM
If you have better information, I will be glad for the correction.

Well I don't have hard data but I live in Canada and I don't see how you can list the USSR as being more diverse than Canada.
We're a nation of immigrants for god's sake. We have the Natives, the founding British and French, the west was populated largely by people from eastern Europe and Russia, escaped slaves from the southern USA settled in the east and in Ontario, today we have a huge influx of immigrants from eastern and south-eastern Asia and the Middle East. I suggest you take a walk in downtown Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver.
I don't see how you lable a country which is made up entirely of immigrants and their descendants as "not very diverse".
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 12:06 PM
Then how would you explain the very high correlation between high crime neighborhoods and very poor neighborhoods?

Very simple: Povery causes Crime. Desperation, stress, hopelessness and oppression cause crime. Many urban areas in the US have these things in abundance.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 12:09 PM
Very simple: Povery causes Crime.

It does not.
#: Posted by on 12/06 at 12:16 PM
That's a rather simplistic correlation, isn't it?

No, it's not. If you look at the most violent neighborhoods in America, they're overwhelmingly poor. Even tho not all poor people are violent, and not all violent people are poor, that is still a 'correlation'. Stating that there is a correlation makes no statement as to causation.

What if the very poor neighborhoods were black? Would you say there was a high correlation because they are black? Of course, you wouldn't. Violent crime comes from violent people. Maybe if someone is violent they can't hold a job and end up in poverty.

So... you're saying that in high crime neighborhoods, the violence makes them poor? That those are not really poor neighborhoods, but merely violent neighborhoods?

Look at the rednecks that attacked Mirecki, did they do it because they were poor?

Strawman argument. I didn't claim that all violence was caused by poverty. Nice try.

I suspect what's going on here is that you're one of those conservatives who hates to acknowledge poverty or social inequality as a cause for anything, and who instead is much more comfortable blaming all social problems on people Being Bad. That everything is just individuals making bad choices. Am I right?

And so you know, I am not making the claim that poverty excuses any and all violent or antisocial behavior. So don't make that accusation, please.
#: Posted by