PZ Myers. 2006 Jan 05. That curious religious asymmetry. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/that_curious_religious_asymmetry/>. Accessed 2008 Nov 20.
Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Thursday, January 05, 2006
That curious religious asymmetry
The awful, tragic mining accident and the erroneous media response brings something into high relief. Greg Saunders noticed:
I can't let the Boston Herald's awful (and in retrospect, horribly inappropriate) headline go without comment. Now that we know the twelve miners were killed, does this mean America's prayers weren't answered? Just like gambling addicts remember their big wins but not their losses, the fate of the twelve miners has transformed from a faith-inspiring act of God to another horrible tragedy in which it's impolite to mention religion at all. Cute little sayings like "the Lord works in mysterious ways" are cop-outs for the logical conclusions that many of us draw from experiences like this. If something fantastic and improbable can be used as proof that there's a benevolent god, doesn't the reverse point toward the conclusion that a higher power is indifferent at best? If you believe in a god that could have saved these men's lives (which I don't, btw), why didn't he? People are quick to throw around the word "miracle" when something wonderful happens, so what the hell do we call this?
I'd like to see that newspaper issue a retraction: "God curses good people; ignores prayers". It will never happen. One of the engines that drives religious belief is the theological ratchet that absolves gods of blame and grants them only responsibility for the good things, or if god is given credit for an affliction, at least the blame is placed on the victim. It's a clever racket, preying on people's desire to believe in a higher benevolence, and promoted even by secularists, who are reluctant to point to tragedies as signs of a lack of cosmic kindness. It's a kind of godly file-drawer effect.
Some of us refuse to grant them that ability to hide their hypocrisy away, though, as noted on Butterflies and Wheels:
"Society bends over backward to be accommodating to religious sensibilities but not to other kinds of sensibilities," says Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and outspoken atheist. "If I say something offensive to religious people, I'll be universally censured, including by many atheists. But if I say something insulting about Democrats or Republicans or the Green Party, one is allowed to get away with that. Hiding behind the smoke screen of untouchability is something religions have been allowed to get away with for too long."
I think they're going to get away with it again, too.
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These were the first thoughts in my mind too. Certainly makes believing in a benevolent god, active in the world, hard for me. The so-called African "otiose god," or god who made stuff then wandered off, leaving the field to assorted ancestors, spirits etc. etc. to handle things -- thereby creating the overall mix of good and bad we call the real world -- makes more sense than this. Or no god at all, of course -- and that's my preference.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 09:59 AM
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I tend to prefer he Aztec concept of the trickster god as the supreme power, myself.
Actually, polytheism almost always makes more sense then monotheism.
Hell, simply declaring that Christ was not omnipotent would pretty much solve every philosophical problem in Christianity. But of course, that's a major heresy.
Anyway, the traditional apologetic answer to this is that god doesn't owe us anything. To which I say, fine, but then I don't have to call him loving, because you're telling me he isn't. But that's a major heresy, also.
I wonder if another reasson (Besides Christianity's ubiquity) that American atheists attack christianity more often then other religions is that it just plain makes less sense then other faiths.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 10:11 AM -
Actually, one of the wives interviewed did say something to the effect of, "Some of us have started to ask if there is a Lord at all." The unbelieveable ugliness of this turn of events makes me not want to watch the news anymore. "Miracle," "blessing," and blah, blah, and then this. Why did the mine explode in the first place? Who's asking about the conditions in which present-day miners work? Probably no better than a hundred years ago. Who's going to report on THAT, instead of how God can help you lose weight, find a job, meet your soul mate, and all the other minutiae of tasks for which people invoke Jesus's name nowadays? (And if I see one more noncritical piece about the "End of the World"...)
#: Posted by Kristine Harley on 01/05 at 10:12 AM
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I was quite surprised to see one news article (can't remember which) quoting at least one local resident as saying that some people had been "cursing God," and that some of them "aren't even sure if there's a Lord anymore." That's pretty amazing for American news coverage.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 10:13 AM
- There are some folks willing to give God the "credit" for this event. The Phelpses of Topeka are at it again.
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Sister Noel Taught us in 3rd grade that there are 3 possible answers to a prayer for intervention from god:
1) Yes
2) No
3) Wait until later
So tragedy fits well into the christian's (at least the catholic's) godview.
And why would he/she put him/herself up to scrutiny by a bunch of nonbelieving, ivory-towered, tenured, know-it-all smartasses anyway?#: Posted by on 01/05 at 10:17 AM -
From the front page of the Herald Tribune:
"People who had been praising God a minute beore were cursing him," (John) Casto told CNN.
There has been similar coverage wrt Katrina, but you have to look very hard to find it. People are quite content, as you note, to give 'God' credit for everything good that happens, and no blame for anything bad.
President-Worship is similar in this respect. It's not a point that will ever yield to rational argument.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 10:18 AM - So Sister Noel taught that God was a Magic 8-Ball?
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I think they're going to get away with it again, too.
Not in the blogosphere. I'm another one who pointed out the rampant hypocrisy yesterday.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 10:35 AM -
People are quick to throw around the word "miracle" when something wonderful happens, so what the hell do we call this?
"God's Will."#: Posted by Martin Wagner on 01/05 at 10:36 AM -
Hey, militant atheist! What hope do you offer?
You know, all you guys do is doom and gloom. Doom and Gloom. No hope. World is harsh. Life's a bitch and then you die.
The philosophy of Eeyore.
Let the people that have lost their loved one’s be. You offer nothing.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 10:43 AM - To quote the late Bill Hicks - God's messin' with them.
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I'd like to see that newspaper issue a retraction: "God curses good people; ignores prayers". It will never happen. One of the engines that drives religious belief is the theological ratchet that absolves gods of blame and grants them only responsibility for the good things, or if god is given credit for an affliction, at least the blame is placed on the victim.
Ah, but you're forgetting the other fallback option: if it happens and you like it, God did it; if it happens and you don't like it, Satan did it!
Weird how so many people are so much more comfortable blaming an anthropomorphized personification of bottomless evil for all misfortune than they are assuming that bad shit happens to everyone and no one 'did' it.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 10:46 AM - It's as silly as football players praying on opposite sides of the field for their team to win. The difference is that at least one team gets their "prayers answered" in the positive - praise GOD! Our prayers were answered because we won the game! A perfect example of "religious logic."
- A lot of the time you hear about how it's "God's mysterious will" and too complex for us humans to understand, and how the bereaved should be happy for the time they had with those who were lost. I personally don't get how that works (although if you believe in an entity powerful enough to create a universe you'd think that that entity could have knowledge we as human's couldn't possibly begin to fathom) but maybe it gives some people solace. Feels a bit like a cop-out and contradiction when those same people are talking about a loving and caring god though.
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You offer nothing.
Neither did god, if you believe such a thing. -
You know, all you guys do is doom and gloom. Doom and Gloom. No hope. World is harsh. Life's a bitch and then you die.
(I don't think anyone here is bashing the people who actually lost loved ones.)
But: what if those ideas you list there are all true? Wouldn't there be more value in understanding those facts and learning not to be bothered by them than there is in being deluded since it's supposedly more cheery? If what you're hinting at here is that atheists or agnostics are less prepared to handle personal tragedies than are theists, I see no evidence for that at all.
Calling facing these things 'doom and gloom' is a common malaise that Americans have, of trying to pretend that death and tragedy don't happen, and then calling people 'morbid' when they do face them.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 10:59 AM -
"Let the people that have lost their loved one’s be. You offer nothing."
There's another of whose hypocritical stratagems right there. Why should it be morally better to offer insubstantiated or falsified hopes than proven facts of life?#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:00 AM -
Of course, The Onion touched on just this some time ago:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812
Sorry if someone else already posted this link; I haven't read through the comments too carefully yet...#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:07 AM -
The nice thing about having a god who's ways are inscrutable is that anything goes. There's always an explanation handy, be it for tragedy or good fortune. Heads I win, tails you lose, by definition.
Let the people that have lost their loved one’s be. You offer nothing.
If you don't know these people, what can you offer, NatureSelectedMe, other than imaginary pie in the sky when you die? As a militant atheist, when friends or family suffer loss, I offer my sympathy and condolences, and help if needed.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:07 AM -
Oh, and by proven facts I mean that we are born and we die. Everything in between is subjected to immediate changes without notice.
Seriously, I don't see why an atheist would hold that life's a bitch. I think he would say "you are a free agent", "you are responsible for your own moral" and "enjoy it while you have it", which is a much more a creative and positive attitude than for example the christian outlook.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:08 AM -
Several things:
Firstly, on my enormous commute to work the other day BBC Radio 4 was reporting heavily on the news that these guys had all (but one) survived. This was accomplished by the usual cries of "miracle" and various prasings of the lord etc. I arrived at the car park at 7:55am, I walked to my desk and arrived at about 8:00am by which time all (but one) of the miners were reported to be dead. My first thoughts were that this was a horrible tragedy and my sympathies were with those poor families.
My second thoughts were not so pleasant! My second thoughts were along the lines of "if god was responsible for saving them, why is god not now responsible for not saving them? Where is this piece of hysterical coverage?". I have to say I did feel a little perturbed that my inner cynic had rushed to the surface so fast but....
Secondly, despite my slight (and inappropriate) guilt at the speed of my inner cynic, I am exceedingly pleased that I was not alone and that Pharyngula (once again) was a place where similar thoughts could be voiced and discussed.
Thirdly, NatureSelectedMe, damn, but I hope you are not serious. If you are not serious, good parody, you got me!
If you ARE serious then this is for you (rant warning!):
What does a fictional, emotionally based, invisible buddy offer? Absolutely nothing. At least atheism (lack of belief in god or gods) is based in reality, which if you have half the sense I think you do, you will realise is FAR more life affirming, positive and joyful than the false and desperate hope that the grass is greener in some fictional apres vis. Yes the universe is pitilessly indifferent to the struggles and whims of Homo sapiens but so fucking what? We are alive, we get to experience the phenomenon that is living as a conscious, sentient being (at least most of us do!).
We have the opportunity to explore, understand, and probe the universe around us. We can experience the myriad feelings and emotions that have evolved to guide us through interactions with the universe around us. Not only can we feel a rush of emotion when we see an object we consider beautiful, but we can also reason out the very mechanisms that produced us in the first place? Doom and Gloom? Hardly!
Billions of possible people would go back in time (if any of this were possible) and make sure the sperm that made them would trade places with the one that made you just for the very opportunity to experience what you now experience.
Far from being joyful and happy, religions cheapen this experience, this life. They promise it gets better somewhere else. It isn't the atheist whining about life being a bitch, it's the theist who is ever hoping for that greener pasture. "Oh woe is me this life is so hard! Perhaps my invisible superbuddy will make me a better one.". Fuck that, and fuck anyone that thinks it. (Controversial? You betcha!) Celebrate the life you HAVE, not some arrant fiction you can never acheive outside of a fantasy.
I'll close with Mencken:
God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set the above their betters.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:09 AM -
Note that Fred "slacktivist" Clark, a Baptist, also objects to the use of the word "miracle" in the news.
"We're Christian people ourselves," one grief-stricken family member said. "We have got -- some of us is right down to saying that we don't even know if there is a Lord anymore. We had a miracle, and it was taken away from us."
That will sound to some like a woman who has lost her faith in God. To me it sounds like the presence of such faith -- like someone struggling to figure out what her faith in God means after life has dealt her a cruel blow.
I don't have any easy answers for this poor woman. There are no easy answers for her.
And if I cannot provide such answers as a theologian, then I certainly shouldn't be trying to provide such answers as a copy editor.
#: Posted by Seth Gordon on 01/05 at 11:09 AM -
I'd like to see that newspaper issue a retraction: "God curses good people; ignores prayers". It will never happen.
There is one news source with the courage to report such a story. http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:11 AM -
NatureSelectedMe
In addition the sympathy and condolences (as pointed out by zilch), atheists (among others) can offer a plan to, say, improve miners' workplace safety conditions here on Earth instead of blathering about what's awaiting them in 'the next life.'
Penn Jillette expressed (some of) the advantages of atheism quite well in his 'This I Believe' segment:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557
As an aside, can someone penetrate my thick skull with a method for posting links with the url hidden here on pharyngula? the 'a href' tag with greater than/less than signs doesn't seem to work, but there is clearly a more up-to-date way to do it that I'm unaware of...#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:16 AM -
Well, in the case of Nature's parody, he got several more. Yep, that must be it. No one can seriously be so offended by the atheist option.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:16 AM -
Hey, militant atheist! What hope do you offer?
I'm not sure if I qualify as "militant", but one of many hopes I could offer is that we could learn better mine construction by learning from this tragedy. I was really disgusted with the people claiming the last group of miners to survive one of these accidents was because of a miracle, when clearly it was human knowledge that saved them: Surveyors calculated the highest spot the trapped miners could get to. Drill parts were quickly sent over, thanks to the cooperation of several human beings. A small elevator was constructed years prior, thanks to human foresight.
Theistic intervention is the philosophy that seems to advocate hopelessness: It says we can only be saved from disaster based on whether or not the deity got off the right side of his bed today.
You know, all you guys do is doom and gloom. Doom and Gloom. No hope. World is harsh. Life's a bitch and then you die.
The philosophy of Eeyore.
I presume "all you guys" refers to fundamentalist theists.
Let the people that have lost their loved one’s be.
We aren't pestering them. The people who seem to be saying they weren't worthy of being rescued by an allegedly omnibenevolent being are.
My stance is "This is terrible. Now let's see what we can do to prevent it from ever happening again."
You offer nothing.
Liar. -
Pastors do this every single day. If you go to some church to "get saved", you'll hear the Good News of Jesus. Which I don't buy into, by the way.
I say, if the Pastors want to be 100% honest, let 'em start at Leviticus. Don't screw around. Let people who have not yet heard the "Good News!" start off with horrible news.
Leviticus is the book that gave me my final push from religion. I've been rational ever since. Now that IS good news.
I'm sure lots of Christians prayed for Katrina to veer left or right. That went well, eh?#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:19 AM -
The Boston Herald never said it was a real miracle but that it was a "Miner Miracle". True oracles, like Delphi and the Herald, speak in riddles and metaphors.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:25 AM
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NatureSelectedMe wrote-
Hey, militant atheist! What hope do you offer?
What do atheists offer?
The idea that human ingenuity,reason and imagination
provide a better reason to live than placing your hopes
in a made-up deity.
Again with the "atheists believe in nothing" line.....
It is not atheists that are taking advantage
of people who have questions about a reason to live....#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:27 AM -
Or sarcasms.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:29 AM
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Yes the universe is pitilessly indifferent to the struggles and whims of Homo sapiens but so fucking what?
Absolutely right!!
We are alive, we get to experience the phenomenon that is living as a conscious, sentient being (at least most of us do!).
It isn't the atheist whining about life being a bitch, it's the theist who is ever hoping for that greener pasture. "Oh woe is me this life is so hard! Perhaps my invisible superbuddy will make me a better one.". Fuck that, and fuck anyone that thinks it. (Controversial? You betcha!) Celebrate the life you HAVE, not some arrant fiction you can never acheive outside of a fantasy.
All splendidly put! Your judicious use of the word 'fuck' plus the HL Mencken closer just made it better!
I suspect that NSM's comments were not a parody. His sentiments remind me strongly of the fundie notion that atheists can't be moral or lead decent lives without the ever-present theat of a vindictive deity.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:29 AM -
Actually, polytheism almost always makes more sense then monotheism.
True. It just doesn't generate nearly as much revenue.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:36 AM -
One of the engines that drives religious belief is the theological ratchet that absolves gods of blame and grants them only responsibility for the good things, or if god is given credit for an affliction, at least the blame is placed on the victim.
Same as any other abusive relationship, really.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:39 AM -
I wonder if another reason (Besides Christianity's ubiquity) that American atheists attack christianity more often then other religions is that it just plain makes less sense then other faiths.
Doubt it. I think it's just that christianity is the dominant game in the West, and christians are the people in America who will try and pressure you into converting, and who will insult you if you don't get with the program. I can think of several other religions that make just as little sense. They're just not well represented here.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:46 AM -
"I'm sure lots of Christians prayed for Katrina to veer left or right. That went well, eh? "
Half prayed for right, half for left -- the invisible man's only option to please everyone was a direct hit. Makes sense to me.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 11:56 AM - you've made a lot of great points here... except that you've left out a thorough consideration of satan. satan is a big red dude with ripping muscles who lives in the fires of a place called hell.
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"Half prayed for right, half for left -- the invisible man's only option to please everyone was a direct hit."
But it wasn't a direct hit--at least not on New Orleans. Katarina did veer off a bit and hit Mississippi. So were the prayers answered, except that people prayed for the wrong thing? They should have prayed for miraculously stronger levees. But really wasn't keeping the levees in working order the responsibility of humanity, specifically the Army Corp of Engineers? For that matter, god's not the one driving SUVs, building factories, and otherwise burning fossil fuels, leading to global warming and worse hurricaines. On the other hand, god's not the one who tracked the hurricaine, allowing for the evacuation of most of New Orleans and the Gulf coast. Credit and blame both lie with humanity. The sooner we stop trying to push both off on our invisible friend the better off we'll be.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:08 PM -
This was a terrible tragedy (likely preventable, according to reports of past company violations), and I feel very sorry for the people who lost loved ones. And, I'm sure Pat Robertson will say that 12 of the 13 people must have been gay.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:11 PM
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I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope for any future decrease in the prevalence of silly belief systems or the ridiculous amount of respect accorded them. (Even in countries far more "secular" than the US the great majority of people are substance dualists of one kind or another, even if no longer one of the traditional varieties. Mortality apparently is too painful to contemplate.) Rational thought does not come easily to us because humans are cognitively quite screwed up (a nice instance of unintelligent design! Though, to be fair, some of our irrational mental algorithms may have been adaptive for hunter-gatherers) as shown, for example, in some famous experiments by the psychologists Kahneman and Tversky. And a strong propensity to believe in invisible friends is a part of the mess, presumably somehow having arisen as a byproduct of other mental functions. On top of this biological substrate, religious memes are notoriously virulent and self-reinforcing. As long as there are people, most of them will believe one or another kind or weird shit.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:13 PM
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you've made a lot of great points here... except that you've left out a thorough consideration of satan. satan is a big red dude with ripping muscles who lives in the fires of a place called hell.
Good point. I also hear he has a tail, horns, a pitchfork, and, usually, a goatee. A 'man of wealth and taste', supposedly.
I also heard something about some guy in a church who married his sister, but that may just be apocryphal.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:14 PM - Blame Texas. The Texans must have outprayed Mississippians, pushing the hurricane slightly eastward.
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I'm not sure any of the monotheistic religions really believe in only one god. They all seem to recognize two powerful supernatural beings - one good, and one evil; one they worship, the other they hate - and that gets them off the hook of theodicy, at least partly. I'm not sure how that really is monotheism.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:29 PM
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#56394: NatureSelectedMe — 01/05 at 10:43 AM
Hey, militant atheist! What hope do you offer?
You know, all you guys do is doom and gloom. Doom and Gloom. No hope. World is harsh. Life's a bitch and then you die.
The philosophy of Eeyore.
Let the people that have lost their loved one’s be. You offer nothing.
Hey gullibe theist! Some guy in Nigeria is offering me a whole lot of money, just for helping him out a bit. Isn't that a great deal? He's offering me so much, and isn't that what it's all about?#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:32 PM -
Acutally I think Texas got off relatively lightly because it has more pull with the big red dude; after all he has so many employees in the Texas Republican Party.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:35 PM
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And one thing the atheistic view doesn't offer is the threat of eternal damnation awaiting sinners or the unsaved. I'm sure that there's more than one grieving family member worried right now that their loved one not only wasn't "saved" from the mine, but also that he wasn't "Saved" from eternal torture in hell. This idea would worry me far more than idea that my loved one had simply stopped existing, and that, for better or worse, they would no longer feel pain. So it's not like religion offers the grieving just solace - it also makes many grieving people suffer far more, needlessly. How is that helpful?
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:37 PM
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"On top of this biological substrate"
Or built into it; religion has been with us for such a long time so one may suspect that it could be an effect of evolution (poor IDiots!) or a phenomena that have effects on our evolution.
"religious memes are notoriously virulent and self-reinforcing"
Interestingly put. So in analogy with addictive harmful drugs one could think that in a sane society they should be subjected to preventive measures.
"As long as there are people, most of them will believe"
What we can do is expose evil and unjust methods used, as PZ does so admirably. That would drive down the frequency of affecteds down to the natural level.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:41 PM -
Interestingly put. So in analogy with addictive harmful drugs one could think that in a sane society they should be subjected to preventive measures. Dawkins has said this quite forthrightly in one of his essays, at least so far as the education of children is concerned. I'm not holding my breath, but I certainly inoculated my own child. Not that I needed to try all that hard- NOBODY is going to tell her what to think. ;)
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:49 PM
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Acutally I think Texas got off relatively lightly because it has more pull with the big red dude; after all he has so many employees in the Texas Republican Party
Good point. Roky Erickson once said that because he came from Texas he was more knowledgeable about the Devil than other people were.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:51 PM -
So Phelps and "godhatesfags" are going to the hills of West Virginia to picket funerals, huh?
One could hope that the evil bastard ends up at the bottom of a mineshaft himself.....
And Hurricanes Katrina and Rita both were creations of Allah aimed at Crawford, Texas. Big A just has lived in the desert so long he's forgotten how to aim the things properly over water.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 12:51 PM -
Also, when your god is invariably good byut something shitty happens to you, you can start to think that either you already sinned somehow to deserve punishment, or that feeling sad or angry with god is a sin. Makes it hard to properly vent.
Atheism doesn't really have that drawback.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 01:09 PM -
"Roky Erickson once said that because he came from Texas he was more knowledgeable about the Devil than other people were."
It's a cold night for alligators.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 01:15 PM -
Note to self: urgent read Dawkins.
Yes, inoculation would be a preventive measure a biologist would think of. The analogy makes me wonder; are people on stuff like methadon or antidepressants (they may help against addictions, don't they?) more likely to kick religion too? Has anyone done any science on religious behaviour?#: Posted by on 01/05 at 01:24 PM -
George Cauldron
What I meant when I said “you offer nothing” was hope. It seems to me that people who believe in God have hope. I don’t see that with militant atheists (I like acerbic atheists). I know you guys are trying to tear down a belief system but I don’t see what you have to replace it with. Look at communism. I’m not saying that death and tragedy don’t happen, but with religion you can help yourself heal by saying “It’s all for the best”. With you guys saying “There is no God, religion is a sham. It’s a canker on the world.” How is that a substitute?
Torbjrn Larsson
Hope sometimes is unsubstantiated and falsified. Just look at the Kerry candidacy. ;)
I think the very reason God is inscrutable is so anything goes. “Heads I win, tails you lose” Is it always a win-lose situation with you guys?
I think he would say "you are a free agent", "you are responsible for your own moral" and "enjoy it while you have it",
You sound almost Republican. ;)
Louis
Far from being joyful and happy, religions cheapen this experience, this life
No, I think it gives it meaning. How do atheists answer, “why are we here?”.
You can never go wrong with Mencken.
Dark Matter
The idea that human ingenuity,reason and imagination
provide a better reason to live…
Wow. Another conservative convert. I feel like Karl Rove.
Has anyone read the The War Prayer by Mark Twain?#: Posted by on 01/05 at 01:35 PM -
Indeed, the fact that the miners' lives were initially reported to have been saved at a 92% rate was tragic for the families, but it produced an interesting and rarely seen side effect -- all sorts of people braying gratefully and self-indulgently about their prayers having been answers were suddenly found with their asses, or maybe just their clasped hands, exposed.
Normally the bodies pile up in an orderly arithmetic sequence, but here we briefly saw a (factitious) backward progression, which presented the goddists with a novel batch of substrate. Still, they refuse to get angry at God. Makes you wonder, but so does almost everything else they say and think.
I did see a woman interviewed on TV exclaiming that after all of the praying she and the townsfolk had done had gone to waste, she had to wonder if there even *was* a Lord. I doubt this seed will take root, though.
Dawkins would approve of me in at least one respect -- I long ago stopped granting the layered ironies, double standards and arrogant futility of blind-faith Jesusy nonsense a free pass.
http://beamingvisionary.blogspot.com/2006/01/gods-unique-sense-of-humor-again-on.html#: Posted by Beaming Visionary on 01/05 at 01:36 PM -
What I meant when I said “you offer nothing” was hope. It seems to me that people who believe in God have hope. I don’t see that with militant atheists (I like acerbic atheists).
Well, I'm sure your anecdotal observations of the internal landscapes of people different from yourself must be accurate...
Well, let's define our terms here: 'hope'. Hope of what? Always being happy? Not having anything bad happen to you again? Hope of being immortal? All three seem wildly unrealistic to me. So what 'hope' are you better at attaining than me?
I know you guys are trying to tear down a belief system
I don't see myself as trying to 'tear down' anything -- what I'm trying to point out, which you don't seem to have gotten, is that your cliche of atheists being 'full of doom and gloom' is nonsense, and results from an a priori idea in your head that only religious people can be happy, since Christians say so. The thing that supposedly gives Christians hope is absent from atheists, therefore atheists lack hope. Rather circular reasoning.
but I don’t see what you have to replace it with. Look at communism.
Why? What does communism have to do with anything? Do you want to imply that nontheistic people are all communists?
I’m not saying that death and tragedy don’t happen, but with religion you can help yourself heal by saying “It’s all for the best”. With you guys saying “There is no God, religion is a sham. It’s a canker on the world.” How is that a substitute?
Wow, you really didn't understand anything anyone here said, did you? What we are trying to say (or me, at least) is that your comments showed you have no comprehension of now a nontheist can deal with tragedy and mortality, and that this leads you to think they can't. It's just like fundies who think that since atheists don't live under a threat of a bearded dude in the clouds punishing them, they can't live morally or be fulfilled. You're imposing your own mental constructs onto other people and assuming they fit everyone.
I really do not wish to get into a discussion of how nontheistic people deal with tragedy and mortality, since others here have discussed it as well, plus I'm sure we all do it a little differently. But just to let you know, in the past 5 years, I've had both my parents, who I was very close to, pass away from extended illnesses and a brother pass away from AIDS. I wasn't a theist of any kind before, during, or after any of that. And as it happened, I didn't collapse because I felt that God Let Me Down, or because I felt Life Was Too Gloomy And Had No Meaning. If you're an intelligent person, you work out internally for yourself what it means based on personal experience, and, hopefully, come out of it a better, tougher, wiser person, which I feel I did. I see no reason to believe that any conventionally religious people would have necessarily done any better. You learn that tragedy and death are totally normal parts of life, as normal as birth and happiness, and that they only destroy you if you don't accept them and don't understand them. No big deal. It happens to everyone. Someone who goes face to face with their mortality is wiser, I think, than someone who can only handle it if they have some hypothetical life preserver to hang on to.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are other paradigms to deal with life than the one you're used to. Don't assume they don't work.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 02:10 PM -
How do atheists answer, “why are we here?”
Why ask why? Try Bud Dry.
I think a better "why" question is, "Why would God give us free will, with knowledge aforethought that all it would bring is the Fall, and with the knowledge that only He can redeem us?"
Bonus question: "How could that possibly add meaning to anyone's life?"#: Posted by on 01/05 at 02:10 PM -
NSM to George Cauldron:
What I meant when I said “you offer nothing” was hope. It seems to me that people who believe in God have hope.
Doesn't look that way to me: Hope seems to exist independently of a belief in deities. I've met people whose theism (specifically including a belief in Hell) caused hopelessness. I'm an atheist, and I've got a lot of hope for humanity (arguably against my better judgement).
I don’t see that with militant atheists (I like acerbic atheists). I know you guys are trying to tear down a belief system but I don’t see what you have to replace it with.
Who says it needs to be replaced with anything? Well, there is science and the secular ideals of hope, love, justice, and so forth. All of those can exist without religion.
Look at communism.
I fail to see what that has to do with anything.
I’m not saying that death and tragedy don’t happen, but with religion you can help yourself heal by saying “It’s all for the best”.
I'm reminded of Candide... but I digress. As for healing, well, you can still say more or less the same thing about atheism: You can learn from the loss and deal with it. No religious component necessary.
With you guys saying “There is no God, religion is a sham. It’s a canker on the world.” How is that a substitute?
#1: Most atheists I know don't say "There is no God." They say "There probably isn't a God." Big difference.
#2: I don't see a need for a substitute. -
As an agnostic, I often find militant atheists to be as annoying as the True Believers of whatever religion. I read the slams about how those of us who suspect there might be deities are infantile idiots with the same raised eyebrow as I do the people who claim their prayers to Jesus saved them and that I am damned to hell because I don't chant the correct religious/magical incantations.
One of the issues in this instance, however, is the loose use of the word 'miracle'. From an old Webster's: miracle; an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs.
If they had survived, there would have been nothing more miraculous about it than the fact that they died. In past mining disasters, some miners survived and some died. To the families involved, that is a pretty cold blooded thing to say, but it's the case in most disasters, some people survive horrendous events and some do not. And from there you can argue that there is no God(s) or that God(s) is capricious or that God(s) was trying to send a message, or whatever suits your world view.
A miracle would be more along the lines of one of the trapped miners appearing at the surface, without the help of the rescue workers.
But, like 'hero' the word 'miracle' has been used, re-used and misused so it doesn't have much meaning. Newspapers are fond of using meaningless, but emotional sounding, terms, so I wouldn't expect anything different in this case. Again, it is pretty cold blooded to talk about the situation when most of us have no involvement with it other than newscasts, but I am reminded of the Floyd Collins episode, which wasn't about mining, but about caveing, in the 20s, and had all the same furor expressed about it.
But then I am damned by both atheists and believers, so don't listen to the damned person. ;)#: Posted by on 01/05 at 02:21 PM -
How do atheists answer, “why are we here?”.
Meaningless question. Besides, I think that if it did have an answer, it'd kind of cheapen the whole thing. -
Communism is an example of a Godless society. Sorry it wasn’t clear. I was looking at it as an unsuccessful atheist based society. Maybe that could be one of the reasons it failed.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 02:50 PM
-
Communism is merely an example of a particularly noxious kind of religion. The fact that the invisible friend in this case is a reification of History doesn't make its logical structure any different from other persecuting religions.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 02:55 PM
- The Soviet Union and China are better examples of totalitarian regimes than they are of godless societies. You might want to consider Sweden, instead -- a nation with a state religion and a population that mostly just doesn't give a damn. That's closer to the atheist ideal, rather than this odd idea that atheism should be imposed on a nation by some kind of dictatorial rule.
- Sorry, NSM: Your example's useless. I'm against Communism, especially the Soviet sort. From my point of view, it looked almost exactly like Spain during the Dark ages, the colonial America witch trials, and McCarthyist America. The whole "god" thing was just one irrelevant boolean variable in the whole mess. I just don't see what Communism's godlessness had to do with its failure.
-
redbraidy: I don't damn agnostics. I think any hesitancy on the existence of gods is a waste of time, but it's a perfectly reasonable intellectual position. I also don't object to deism, because although there is no evidence for that deity, there isn't any evidence against it either (by intent; their deity is neatly tucked away where its existence is untestable). I even like many outright theists who prioritize properly, arguing that the world is important evidence of their god's actions.
But man, this constant conflation of atheists with dogmatic fundamentalists by certain agnostics tends to piss me off. I won't mock you for your reasonable uncertainty if you learn to recognize that a) atheists aren't evangelical, b) atheists aren't reliant on dogma, and c) atheists have no fundamental book which they insist must be literally interpreted. Fair enough? -
The Soviet Union and China are better examples of totalitarian regimes than they are of godless societies. You might want to consider Sweden, instead -- a nation with a state religion and a population that mostly just doesn't give a damn. That's closer to the atheist ideal, rather than this odd idea that atheism should be imposed on a nation by some kind of dictatorial rule.
Agreed. Besides, lots of people stayed religious in the Soviet Union, regardless of what the state wanted. Wouldn't that invalidate the notion that it was a 'godless society'? If not, why not?#: Posted by on 01/05 at 03:13 PM -
I'd like to see that newspaper issue a retraction: "God curses good people; ignores prayers".
Here's my suggestion:
"12 of 13 Miners Naturally Deselected" -
I just don't see what Communism's godlessness had to do with its failure.
It was cursed, you see. ;)
I was thinking along the lines similar to PZ where it is bad having atheism imposed on a Nation. This might cause a backlash. I’ve read that it caused the US to add "Under God" to the pledge of allegiance.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 03:37 PM -
Never been entirely sure whether to call myself an atheist, but close enough for these purposes...
How do atheists answer, “why are we here?”.
How does a miner's child answer, "what are the words that will bring my father back to life?"
How do mathematicians answer, "what is the number that is one bigger than itself?"*
How do theists answer, "how tall is God's father?"
The fact that you can assemble words into a semantically correct question is no guarantee that that question has an answer, or is even meaningful. You're assuming that there *is* a 'why'; I see no need to adopt that assumption.**
IME, learning that the existence of a question does not imply the existence of an answer makes life a great deal easier to live.
*No, infinity is not a number. It's several different things to mathematicians, but none of them are true numbers.
**Assuming we're talking at a 'purpose' sort of level; this blog has several hundred posts addressing the physical 'why'.#: Posted by Geoffrey Brent on 01/05 at 04:01 PM -
NSM:
'Under God' was added during the Red scare to seperate ourselves from the 'godless' communists (does that remind anyone of the fundimentalist Islamic phrase godless infidels?). Thats the main reason there has been some discussion of taking it out (because unlike 'In God We Trust', et al, it has no historical basis - plus the pledge is kind of stupid really IMO).
As for why communist contries persecute religion, its because the leaders want to be the only game in town. Instead of building themselves up like gods or god's messangers (King of England, pharohs, et al.), they would establish themselves as secular rulers. It isn't necessarily because they thought religions was bad, it just threatened their monopoly.
Why all the hatred for communism in America, I'll never understand. At its base, communism is a utopian society where people's needs are met and no one is subjagated. Old Christians in America used to establish communes as a small scall communism to provide for everyone in the community. Marx just came at it from a different angle (the plight of the worker as opposed to trying to live as Jesus). However, in reality, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly; so nothing like communism actually ever happened in either case.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 04:01 PM -
Some before-and-after newspaper covers of the story:
http://www.brainshrub.com/miners-news-context -
"I know you guys are trying to tear down a belief system but I don’t see what you have to replace it with."
Reality.#: Posted by Beaming Visionary on 01/05 at 04:06 PM -
NatureSelectedMe,
Oh shit you WERE serious! Forgive me, I seem to have deeply overestimated your intellectual gifts.
I suppose I need to lead you through it step by step. The reason the hope for an after life, or the claim that there is a better alternative to the life you and I are currently leading, cheapens this life is because it shifts the focus from improving this life to improving one's chances of achieveing this fictional after life. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but there are plenty of examples of where they are, details depend on which religion one looks at of course.
Meaning is entirely a personal issue. If your religion gives your life meaning then good for you! I wouldn't take that away from you. That does not mean that your religion has to give my life meaning, nor that because I do not share your religion, my life is meaningless. Consider the simple fact that there are people with different religions to your own who also claim meaning in their lives. That simple fact shows you precisely the value of religion. It's a sop, a crutch, a security blanky. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, but it hardly makes it a universal panacea.
As for "Why are we here?". Simple. I have two answers to the question. If you mean "why am I here?" the answer is "my parents fucked and here I am!", it really is no more complex than that. If you mean "what is the purpose for human life, why are we here?" I ask you this simple question: Why does there have to be some grand overarching purpose? No one ever wants to answer that.
Personally, I give my life meaning, some ephemeral cosmic purpose that I dream up doesn't do it for me. My life's meaning and purpose is defined by my actions, not by appeal to some invisible, fictional entity. But there isn't any great cosmic significance to my existence. I'm not arrogant enough to think the universe exists for me, nor that the basic reason for the existence of the universe is to provide humans with something to stand on while we do our stuff.
I suggest you learn a bit more about what atheism is rather than falsely equating the lack of belief in a deity with the worst excesses of despair and totalitarian regimes.
Louis
P.S. You can never go wrong with Mencken? Oh yes you can. I don't agree with everything the man said, did or stood for. But I agree with the quote I posted.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 04:21 PM -
I was thinking along the lines similar to PZ where it is bad having atheism imposed on a Nation. This might cause a backlash.
It's not the idea being imposed that was the problem. It was the imposition.
The only thing I want compelling people to atheism (or religion) is evidence. If the government started imposing atheism, I'd be among the first to picket. Of course, I'm currently picketing the attempts to impose (more) Christianity on the government for exactly the same reason. -
Meaning is entirely a personal issue. If your religion gives your life meaning then good for you! I wouldn't take that away from you.
I don't think that's entirely true from your perspective. The militant atheists are trying to take it away by belittling it.
Why does there have to be some grand overarching purpose? No one ever wants to answer that.
It's the quest for the answer that's important. To some people that is. It’s like science in a way. Why do we have to know how a squid evolved? Because.
I'm not arrogant enough to think the universe exists for me, nor that the basic reason for the existence of the universe is to provide humans with something to stand on while we do our stuff.
The flip side of that is saying that we’re meaningless. There has to be some middle ground.
What is there it read up on to understand atheists? I get all I need from here.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 04:57 PM -
<blockquote>The flip side of that is saying that we’re meaningless.</blockqoute>
Until we decide for ourselves on a meaning. No religion necessary for that. Personally, I typically find religion to be hostile towards meaningfulness.
Or at least putting in a useless middleman. Why does God exist? -
The militant atheists are trying to take it away by belittling it.
The fact that you feel this way speaks volumes about your faith.
The flip side of that is saying that we’re meaningless. There has to be some middle ground.
There is. It's been expressed here multiple times. We provide ourselves with meaning. Whether it's a god, a sports franchise, a science, or something else, each person decides for him (or her) self what provides that meaning.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 05:29 PM -
The flip side of that is saying that we’re meaningless. There has to be some middle ground.
There you go again. You're imposing your own preconceptions and expectations on others, assuming everyone thinks like you do.
You might need a big god in the sky to worship to feel grounded. Others do not feel this way. Others truly do not need to derive their meaning of life from some deity's 'cosmic plan' for them. Don't assume that deep down everyone needs the same stuff you need.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 05:37 PM -
Why all the hatred for communism in America, I'll never understand
I think the main reason it was hated was the idea of outlawing all private property. Business is big in America and it runs on private property. Communism is a utopian ideal were everybody has to cooperate to make it work. Can you see PZ doing that with the Shrub? I know there have been societies in the past where it has worked better, but I think you can’t go back once you allow private property. It’s so productive. Say there was a society where everyone shared the land. Who decides what to build where? But once someone buys a piece of land, they want to improve it. Build a house, a farm, or maybe factories.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 05:41 PM -
"The militant atheists are trying to take it away by belittling it."
Oh please. No one can take that away from anyone else.
"The flip side of that is saying that we’re meaningless. There has to be some middle ground."
No there doesn't.
I agree with what folks said earlier about the meaning of "miracle" being cheapened. Same goes for "tragedy". Were any of these miners trying to be good but met their downfall due to a tragic flaw, or hamartia? To paraphrase George Carlin, it ain't a tragedy every time someone stops breathing. But that's why I never read these "human interest" stories anyway. Funny how people carp on and on about not wanting to learn about things that "don't effect them", like politics, but happily wallow in sensational stories like that whole Aruba thing.
And finally, to Torbjrn:
"are people on stuff like methadon or antidepressants (they may help against addictions, don't they?) more likely to kick religion too?"
I doubt it (and anyway, isn't methadone a narcotic as well?). How many stories have you read about former drug addicts/alcoholics becoming all messed up on God? I read a story about the oh-so-wonderful born-again on the local college football team who had that kind of conversion. I'm no expert, but I think it's just another manifestation of the "addictive personality," when a physical addictant is taken away, the person is still vulnerable to/dependent upon some sort of psychological addiction, and religion often fills this void, as you see just as much of their time/energy devoted to it as it was to the drugs/parties before.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 06:19 PM -
"I think the very reason God is inscrutable is so anything goes."
That is one of the things militant atheists claims, yes. It's muddling and befuddling on purpose. We can't have the racket caught redhanded, say in a misreported mining accident, can we?
"Is it always a win-lose situation with you guys?"
We also have the draw. Fair games, morally and practically better than the rigged game you profess to participate in.
"You sound almost Republican. ;)"
Even political parties can sometimes by accident get it right, even though by construction they do their damnedest to satisfy interests instead. Of course, fundies are likely to be Republican too.
"It's the quest for the answer that's important. It’s like science in a way."
No. The method of science is particular about which questions it can answer. A theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations made that is predictive, logical, testable, and can be falsified.
As noted here, with languages you can make haphazard constructions. The question of 'meaning' is meaningless for science.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 06:36 PM -
Personally, I am coming more and more to think that the large religions are like big-box stores, unfairly out-competing the little local religions and putting them out of business, like stationers or hardware stores; or like large nations, thoughtlessly destroying small nations' ways of life, and that we all ought to go back to animism, where small, hard-working deities are busy looking after, say, the local butterflies, or the local river.
#: Posted by on 01/05 at 06:40 PM
-
Rey,
Methadone (sp) is similar to morphine but less habit-forming. It's used to block other addictions.
Sorry, but I can't help but think that you say should answer my question positively.
You say that physiological and psychological addiction is pretty much interchangeable after the addictive substance is removed. My question was about keeping an addictive substance (methadone) or removing psychological addictions (antidepressants). I would like to see if this would make a difference in the frequency of faith dependents.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 06:55 PM -
TL:
Methadone (sp) is similar to morphine but less habit-forming.
That's arguable. The withdrawal symptoms are less severe but last longer; a lot of addicts have described methadone as being harder to quit than heroin. (Others disagree; I suspect it depends on the individual.)
Its advantages aren't so much that it's less habit-forming, but that it's less dangerous in some regards: it's more amenable to oral use (no needles), increasing tolerance with use is less of an issue, and its effects last longer (less frequent doses).#: Posted by Geoffrey Brent on 01/05 at 07:58 PM -
Geoffrey,
Perhaps you, being knowledgeable on this, should issue an arratum to http://www.thefreedictionary.com where I found my "facts" with the correct spelling.
Interestingly, even though I know next to nothing about addictions (outside my own for coffeine, that is), I would have written less dangerous if I hadn't stumbled on the above 'web facts'. The brain is a mighty huge sponge, which unfortunately cuts several ways.#: Posted by on 01/05 at 08:35 PM -
Sadly, my pharmacological credentials aren't likely to impress the editors of the American Heritage Dictionary, which looks to be where that came from (note that the medical dictionary from freedictionary doesn't make the same claim). I did spend quite a few hours in a School of Pharmacology, but only because they were paying me to receive electric shocks
#: Posted by Geoffrey Brent on 01/05 at 09:03 PM
- Well, my point was actually that since methadone is just another potentially addictive drug, then it's basically a substitute (temporarily) for the mor